Hello everyone,
I just returned from the US and I didn't get a chance to (nor felt like) check(ing) the responses to the RMAF session that originally was the subject of this thread.
First of all, I'd like to thank Thom for hosting the event, secondly apologize for the fact that the circumstances/conditions were far from what they ought to be to call it a valid comparison between tonearms.
I had no choice but to ask Thom and Joel if they'd agree to me using a different cartridge than the A90, generously supplied by Mike Lavigne(thanks again!), as it had issues that would have made a comparison invalid to begin with. Had there been a second Dynavector XV1s, I'd have used that, despite it being not my favorite cartridge.
The choice I then made had to do with what was available AND promised to be of high enough a quality to make the event "work" in one way or another. It might have been better(less risky) to cancel the show, but just because you found that the sweets purchased for Haloween were past their expiration date, you don't tell all the trick or treaters to go elsewhere, but you go back to the candy store and buy what may not be their first choice but still qualifies a CANDY.
The cartridge chosen had such different requirements in terms of loading and gain, that the Atmasphere preamp's phonosection would not have been a reasonable match. I suggested bringing what I was using in the Artemis room, simply because it worked there without any problem. No "team Schröder" trying to take advantage of the situation here. More like competing in someone elses skatepark with additional time required to mount the proper wheels after finding their concrete was different from yours at home. The targeted price tag on that phonostage(a prototype) was not known to me(nor, I believe, is it carved in stone). Irrespective of that, it was clear to me - and I tried to make it clear to Thom and Joel - that it was no longer possible to regard/call/sell the event as a "shootout".
About the playback levels chosen. It is not correct that the playback level on the Sussurro/Schröder/Artemis combo was always ~5db louder than for the XV1s/Thalea/Atmashere frontend. In one case it was the exact opposite and I did comment on that right after the track was over. This brings me to a very important deficiency of the entire session, one that would have obscured(to say the least) any outcome even if the only variable had been the tonearm. The volume control on the Atmasphere preamp(no criticism per se intended) is rather coarsly stepped where both Joel and I ended up using/having to use it. It was simply impossible to achieve level matching to within 1db and even that would be above my personal requirement(+/-0,2db max!) for a halfway objective comparison. I asked the listeners whether to go up or down in volume every time it was my turn to level match the playback. Now if anyone in the audience had a level meter, why didn't they come forward and say "wait, that's to high" or "turn it down a notch, please"? Actually, if you had done any level measurements, you'd know that it isn't possible to get even close without a test tone and a quiet room(instead of music playing). An iPhone comes in handy if you have Shazam on it, but as a level meter, well...
No odormeter app yet available for it either, but there were clearly too many people in the room that all had a long day. Relaxed listening it didn't seem to be. The original target was 20(25 people max.), I counted nearly 50 and might have missed some.
Despite all of that, I do not regret suggesting such an event in in the first place nor going through with it despite all of the above. And while it was obvious that not everyone's expectations were met, there seemed to have been easily as many people having enjoyed it as there were disgruntled ones. Now why is it that the latter group had numerous members(see posts above) that could clearly assign the differences they heard to just the tonearms that were used, seemingly omitting the influence of cartridge, phonostage, wiring?
A reminder. I suggested to invite EVERY tonearm designer/manufacturer/representative who considers their product worthy of the state of the art sticker. I deeply regret that it seemed to have been impossible for Thom to offer/give the Triplanar, the Reed, the Well Tempered, the Graham Phantom or Micha Huber's Simplicity tonearm(to name a few) a platform.
I realize that such an undertaking would be next to impossible to fit into the frame of a Trade Show evening, but if(with all the things we learned from this in mind) we'd ever do it again, any interested party should be approached/included, possibly at the cost of having to go with more than one host.
What did I get out of this? I met Joel Durand, who, apart from making an excellent tonearm, seemed to be as nice and humble a person as your are ever likely to encounter at RMAF, which, as far as such shows go, beats every other show for good spirited people. I'm definitely looking forward to our next meeting!
For the record(pun intended..:-) : I did build the first tonearm with a magnetically stabilized and damped thread bearing in 1978, a time when there was no internet or other means for a 15year old to research what was "out there" to copy or use as an "inspiration". No neodymium magnets, Kevlar, Dyneema... either back then. SmCo was the strongest magnetic material available back them, few monofilaments were usable at all. The arm looked a lot like some of the rougher DIY-Schröder "clones" you'll find on the net(couldn't afford a lathe 'til I was 18).So while I hold Bill Firebaugh's work in the highest regard, he is not my dad :-)
Back to chief philosopher D. Brakemeier, aka Dertonarm and the definition of value...
See ya'all next year (or sooner :-)
Frank
I just returned from the US and I didn't get a chance to (nor felt like) check(ing) the responses to the RMAF session that originally was the subject of this thread.
First of all, I'd like to thank Thom for hosting the event, secondly apologize for the fact that the circumstances/conditions were far from what they ought to be to call it a valid comparison between tonearms.
I had no choice but to ask Thom and Joel if they'd agree to me using a different cartridge than the A90, generously supplied by Mike Lavigne(thanks again!), as it had issues that would have made a comparison invalid to begin with. Had there been a second Dynavector XV1s, I'd have used that, despite it being not my favorite cartridge.
The choice I then made had to do with what was available AND promised to be of high enough a quality to make the event "work" in one way or another. It might have been better(less risky) to cancel the show, but just because you found that the sweets purchased for Haloween were past their expiration date, you don't tell all the trick or treaters to go elsewhere, but you go back to the candy store and buy what may not be their first choice but still qualifies a CANDY.
The cartridge chosen had such different requirements in terms of loading and gain, that the Atmasphere preamp's phonosection would not have been a reasonable match. I suggested bringing what I was using in the Artemis room, simply because it worked there without any problem. No "team Schröder" trying to take advantage of the situation here. More like competing in someone elses skatepark with additional time required to mount the proper wheels after finding their concrete was different from yours at home. The targeted price tag on that phonostage(a prototype) was not known to me(nor, I believe, is it carved in stone). Irrespective of that, it was clear to me - and I tried to make it clear to Thom and Joel - that it was no longer possible to regard/call/sell the event as a "shootout".
About the playback levels chosen. It is not correct that the playback level on the Sussurro/Schröder/Artemis combo was always ~5db louder than for the XV1s/Thalea/Atmashere frontend. In one case it was the exact opposite and I did comment on that right after the track was over. This brings me to a very important deficiency of the entire session, one that would have obscured(to say the least) any outcome even if the only variable had been the tonearm. The volume control on the Atmasphere preamp(no criticism per se intended) is rather coarsly stepped where both Joel and I ended up using/having to use it. It was simply impossible to achieve level matching to within 1db and even that would be above my personal requirement(+/-0,2db max!) for a halfway objective comparison. I asked the listeners whether to go up or down in volume every time it was my turn to level match the playback. Now if anyone in the audience had a level meter, why didn't they come forward and say "wait, that's to high" or "turn it down a notch, please"? Actually, if you had done any level measurements, you'd know that it isn't possible to get even close without a test tone and a quiet room(instead of music playing). An iPhone comes in handy if you have Shazam on it, but as a level meter, well...
No odormeter app yet available for it either, but there were clearly too many people in the room that all had a long day. Relaxed listening it didn't seem to be. The original target was 20(25 people max.), I counted nearly 50 and might have missed some.
Despite all of that, I do not regret suggesting such an event in in the first place nor going through with it despite all of the above. And while it was obvious that not everyone's expectations were met, there seemed to have been easily as many people having enjoyed it as there were disgruntled ones. Now why is it that the latter group had numerous members(see posts above) that could clearly assign the differences they heard to just the tonearms that were used, seemingly omitting the influence of cartridge, phonostage, wiring?
A reminder. I suggested to invite EVERY tonearm designer/manufacturer/representative who considers their product worthy of the state of the art sticker. I deeply regret that it seemed to have been impossible for Thom to offer/give the Triplanar, the Reed, the Well Tempered, the Graham Phantom or Micha Huber's Simplicity tonearm(to name a few) a platform.
I realize that such an undertaking would be next to impossible to fit into the frame of a Trade Show evening, but if(with all the things we learned from this in mind) we'd ever do it again, any interested party should be approached/included, possibly at the cost of having to go with more than one host.
What did I get out of this? I met Joel Durand, who, apart from making an excellent tonearm, seemed to be as nice and humble a person as your are ever likely to encounter at RMAF, which, as far as such shows go, beats every other show for good spirited people. I'm definitely looking forward to our next meeting!
For the record(pun intended..:-) : I did build the first tonearm with a magnetically stabilized and damped thread bearing in 1978, a time when there was no internet or other means for a 15year old to research what was "out there" to copy or use as an "inspiration". No neodymium magnets, Kevlar, Dyneema... either back then. SmCo was the strongest magnetic material available back them, few monofilaments were usable at all. The arm looked a lot like some of the rougher DIY-Schröder "clones" you'll find on the net(couldn't afford a lathe 'til I was 18).So while I hold Bill Firebaugh's work in the highest regard, he is not my dad :-)
Back to chief philosopher D. Brakemeier, aka Dertonarm and the definition of value...
See ya'all next year (or sooner :-)
Frank