Schroeder arms: order of merit?

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Sirspeedy,
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I am a big fan of the Graham 2.2 and spent a good deal of time working on the damping fluid after reading your and 4yanx posts (and prior to hearing 3 Schroder Arms in my system) on the value and how to find the ideal damping fluid. Getting the damping fluid correct, made a huge improvement in the sonics (I completely agree with you).
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I think Mr. Graham's designs are excellent and he is a good guy (and that is important to me). I love the phenomenal ease of adjustability of his arms. Adjusting the VTA on the fly is a dream. I was even more impressed with the design of his Phantom, but I did not have the benefit of hearing it in my own system and can’t give any valid feedback of how it sounded.
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I still have the Graham 2.2 in my system and get great sound/music out of it. The fact that I liked what any of the Schroder Arms did for my system considerably better as compared to the 2.2, does not lower my opinion of the 2.2.
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There was a room full of 8 people that were 100 percent in accord with the fact that they preferred all 3 of the Schroder Arms : the Model 2, DPS and Reference over the Graham 2.2. It was not even a bit of a debate. Does that make the 2.2 a mediocre arm ? Hardly, I think it is a terrific arm and a good value. I just think the Schroder Reference is an amazing tonearm. Will I get a Schroder at some point ? Yes, as soon as I can and it will be a Reference.
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When you have had a Schroder in your system (perhaps even with a UNIverse) and been able to compare them side by side at the same time, listening to the same LP's, I think you might stop being so cynical and will sing a different tune. At this point, you are just twisting at Windmills (but you seem to enjoy it so).
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Warmest Regards,
Larry
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Hello sirspeedy,
The Graham 2.2 is an excellent arm, no doubt. Like all other top flight tonearms, it requires meticulous care in setup and I can tell that you have spent alot of time squeezing the last bit of performance out of it. But, other people put up just as much of an effort, so I'd be careful to dismiss their findings based on the assumption that you were the only guy in class to do his homework.
Now to a technical question. Why would you not want to have your cartridge screws tightly set(as in "one step before stripping the screw head") to eliminate resonance? Because tightening down those screws doesn't eliminate resonances(well, unless you have a flimsy headshell and a cartridge with a rigid, flat top surface body). What you do is create a "quicker" path for the vibratios coming from the cartridge to travel down the headshell/armwand/brearing assembly. Those vibrations have to "die out"(be dissipated) without exciting any resonances in the tonearms structure and/or being "bounced back" to the cartridge. If the arm features a high sound propagation speed and high rigidity headshell/armwand, keeping the cartridge screws quite tight seems the logical thing to do and sometimes is. The spectrum of vibrations fed into the armwand does vary from cartridge to cartridge though and often the energy transfer(both in terms of level and frequency content) can be influenced(I dare not say "controlled")by varying the coupling between the cart and the headshell.
In the case of the DPS and Reference arms, it is not the cartridge screws that are to be played with but the screw that holds/couples the headshell plate to the armwand. The brass sleeve inside the wooden headshell section(normally not visible) is slightly less "tall" than the headshell itself and allows the screw head to continually compress the wood until it hits the sleeve, which is the point when you've reached just as tight a coupling as with conventional arms. So instead of 15-20° from barely grabbing to "tight as a tax officers you know what", you have about half a turn of the screw to play with.
Please remember also that my arms do not depend/rely on the dissipation of energy in the arms mounting board. Here, maximum sound propagation is not as important as maximum and even damping to prevent vibrations being reflected back to the cart. And while there can be too much bearing damping, there is no such thing as an overly nonresonant tonearm structure(unless you prefer a certain "lively" arm sound).
If you'd criticize this adjustment option as a "voicing" tool, then VTA adjustment, silicon fluid damping or the choice of mounting board material fall into the same category.
I realize your remark was meant more as a tease, but thought this issue might be of general interest, hence my reply.

Greetings to all of you,

Frank

I am getting a little tired of this love fest “fealty;” regarding the Schroeder tone arm. I suppose they are excellent products. But for me it is a "turn off" for the main US vendor as well as the manufacturer to be constantly responding to comments or opinions that do not merely recite the mantra about the greatness of the product.

Presumably, the wait time for a Schroeder is more than 4 months because the manufacturer spends too much time surfing the web responding to divergent opinions

Dear Mr. Morris,
The last thing I enjoy is spending time in front of a computer screen. 95% of my replies deal with a technical question, if my answers do not interest you, skip'em! I'm still as much of an audio enthusiast as I was before I went "professional". Does that mean I can't participate in a technical discussion? I hope not...
And the waiting time is now 5 months(not likely because I responded to your post, my typing isn't THAT slow ;-)

Cheers,

Frank

Gmorris,loosen up,a bit.We are all having a good little chat.Nobody's calling anyone names,and this is how someone, like me,evaluates a product,and files the feedback in my memory bank(admittedly,a small one,at that).

I think Frank and Larry knew that I was being a bit "tongue in cheek",and I didn't detect any hostility,from them.I did have a "mild" concern about the "tightness issue"(one that didn't really bother me all that much,anyway)and just wanted to put it out there.So what?That is part of the fun of this forum,so long as nobody trashes a product,or each other.For me,it's all part of a learning process.I,unlike some,don't know it all!I,only,definitively, know my own stuff!You seem to be a good guy,so I hope you understand.

As for Frank's frequent responses.I,too,once questioned this.My take is this:He has every right to respond.He seems to take real PRIDE in his product,and it's reputation(would you want it any other way?).He has knowledge of his competition,and we can learn,a bit,from his input.Finally,and since I own a business,this is "damn good business practice",he continues to help his products by giving them exposure,through threads like this!

Larry,don't get pissed off,but you did make the claims of the "clear superiority" of the arm shoot out,PRIOR to my input pertaining to the 2.2 fluid(which I DON'T consider groundbreaking,just "BACKBREAKING",but I loved the "TWEAK" journey of discovery, when learning it for myself).You,now,admit that you learned, from getting better acquainted with the voicing potential of the fluid quantity(which is great).So,why should I not question the "absolute" validity of the comparison,some months ago.Believe me,when you get the REF,I'll be salivating for your response,in comparison to the 2.2.As of now I remain just a bit specious.I,certainly,never thought you didn't like the (quite fabulous,BTW)2.2!!This is the way it should be amongst audio friends.My friends tear each other apart during intense listening sessions(maybe I'm in the wrong crowd,actually),if someone doesn't like a particular aspect of set-up,or interfacing.To me,it has bettered my evaluation senses,and I've benefitted from this,in the long run(I think)!!

I really don't get too worked up if something I own gets a bad rap,from another hobbyist,or reviewer.Who cares!As long as I feel I know that product,and I'm not rationalizing to myself,about it.BTW,I'm NOT accusing you of any of this.Just sharing some(probably boring)thoughts.The ONLY time I get worked up is if I feel I'm at an impass on a particular component,that I've invested in,and I cannot get the performance,from it,that I feel I should.As of now(actually last night)I'm "reasonably" happy.Though that may change when you do get around to communicating you're, educated, thoughts on the REF vs the 2.2!!Or Albert Porter FINALLY "tells the world" that his tubed crossover modded Megalines are the "Real Deal".So,take your time.PLEASE!!!Let me be happy for a couple of days!