Searching for matching(?) Subwoofer solution

Hello rauliruegas,

     Regarding bass phase and recordings not done with only 2 mics or CDs with out of phase bass, my opinion is that we really have no control over that and can't do anything about it except avoid listening to poorly recorded music content.

     Regarding whether we can localize bass under 80 Hz using our ears and brains or any other body parts, I know I can often feel sharp 55 Hz strikes on a kick drum with my body but it doesn't inform me where it came from within my system soundstage. I believe I perceive the kick drum, that I can feel and hear, as being located in the rear center of my system soundstage because of the higher frequency harmonics/overtones of the 55 Hz fundamental tone, that reach above 80 Hz that we are able to localize, and our brains are able to relate or associate them to the fundamental tone of the kick drum strike and determine its location within my system soundstage.  In other words, we are only able to localize fundamental bass tones with frequencies below 80 Hz if the harmonics/overtones related to that fundamental deep bass tone that are above 80 Hz are also heard, usually through both of our main speakers.
     I understand this is a complex thought to convey and I hope you understand what I wrote.
     I don't consider this true stereo deep bass but rather what I've termed Psychoacoustic Phenomenon Psuedo Stereo Deep Bass.

    I agree with you that using better quality subs will only improve the quality of bass reproduced.  I think this is true whether one uses a single sub or multiple subs.

Tim

@rauliruegas wrote:
" Even the AK SWARM manufacturer/owner posted in this forum:

""" You can get good bass in one sweet spot with two equalized subs """. Not 3 or 4 but TWO."

I probably said the first part, but just to be clear I DID NOT say the second part ("Not 3 or 4 but TWO"). Imo three or four subs intelligently positioned are superior to two, whether or not EQ is involved.

Quoting rauliruegas again:

"Again, even the AK designer/owner from where came your 4 bass array configuration posted in this same forum that two subs for two channel stereo MUSIC are ENOUGH."

I don’t remember saying that in so many words, and if I did, the word "ENOUGH" is highly subjective and I should have been careful how I used the word.

The basic problem is, the room imposes a significant peak-and-dip pattern on a subwoofer at low frequencies. The peaks are especially undesirable because they take longer to decay and can make the bass sound slow, boomy, one-note, etc.

We can move the subwoofers and change the peak-and-dip pattern, but we cannot eliminate it by positioning alone.

We can use bass traps to absorb bass energy and reduce the magnitude of the peaks and dips.

We can use EQ to reduce the energy going into the peaks and maybe even boost the energy going into the dips, which can work well at one location, but will usually make the bass worse at other locations because the peaks and dips will be at different frequencies.

We can use multiple subs spread intelligently around the room so that each produces a significantly different room-interaction peak-and-dip pattern, and the sum of these different patterns will be pretty smooth, and this smoothness will hold up well throughout the room. In general two subs intelligently distributed are twice as smooth as one, and four subs are twice as smooth as two.

I see no reason why these different approaches cannot be combined.

I really haven’t spent much time figuring out the best way to use two subs, because imo the improvement in going from two to four is worthwhile (assuming approximately the same total expenditure). If someone is limited to using two subs, then I suggest they go to one of my competitors. Not that I’m an expert on all of the subs out there, but ime Rhythmic makes some very nice ones.

Duke
guy who makes the Swarm

@rauliruegas,

When I got first got my front firing vented PSA V1801 subs I hooked up ONE on the left side front corner wall of my listening room and it replaced a down firing (almost vintage) SVS PB12-Plus/2 12.3 subwoofer. I could tell right away the location of that sub. And the same with the previous sub the SVS PB12-Plus/2 12.3 subwoofer. Was it subtle yes, but you could tell.

Not only could I tell the location of the ONE front firing vented PSA V1801 and the ONE SVS PB12-Plus/2 12.3 subs - placed in the far left corner - I could tell, feel, sense, hear, locate or whatever that the sonic wave, force or sound of the down firing sub was coming from the bottom of the down firing sub! There is a difference! I would suspect that is why so many sub manufactures make so many different types of directional firing subs.

Then when I set up the replacement front firing vented PSA V1801 sub I immediately noticed, could tell, feel, sense, hear, locate or whatever that the sonic wave, force or sound was coming out of the front of the sub front firing speaker! The only thing I have to go on is my own empirical experiences.

And that SVS PB12-Plus/2 12.3 sub? I still have it - as I have come to love that thing and the bass it brings! I just have come to like the ’sound’ of a front firing sub better.

I also have to mention that the above subs are beasts! And have a force of sound that can crumble motor in a brick wall and the sheer force (decibels) of the sound is probably what I ’feel’. And maybe I’ve been fortunate enough to actually have experienced a ’quality’ (sub) woofer too.

@audiokinesis

Mr. Duke,

When your Swarm first came out I and bunch of others were impressed at such a brilliant thinking out of the box idea. I completely believed and understood the science behind it. It’s just that when someone attacks, demeans, and literally calls you (me) out with their own psyco bass bable bullshit that is based on untruths and then goes and runs behind your outstanding design - sometimes you just gotta hit a bully in the nose and stand up for yourself.

The attacks here - I suspect are not the first. In fact there may be hundreds of B.S. posts by this poser - directed at others on Gon standing behind and using your Swarm technique - and others, without a leg to stand on his own.

Apologies to all! I didn't mean to stir up so much drama!

But I sincerely appreciate so many of you responding to my query.  This is still an exciting journey for me. I have enjoyed and learned quite a lot each of your postings.

So I have decided to empty my office, place my main speakers and perhaps two woofers, experiment with placement, acoustical room treatments, etc.

Looks like my next homework assignment will be researching the various subwoofer configurations (forward firing, down firing, vented, ported, sealed, anything I missed?)   
  
Should I take advantage of the temporarily empty office to lay down carpeting?

I will try to "furnish around" the speakers and then experiment again.

Many thanks!!

Hans

@hleeid'

'Should I take advantage of the temporarily empty office to lay down carpeting?'

My buddies that have man caves and and not only use their system for playing music but watching movies too - swear by adding carpet.