Sloped baffle

hi Lewinskih01,
yes, with some engineering proof, that's what I was trying to say. And, the reason that seemed to make sense to me is that signal processing is happening correctly, real-time thru the passive x-over components without any intervention by a human-being. In a time-coherent loudspeaker with passive x-overs, drivers with "good properties" have already been selected & the x-over designed around them & the whole system would be working to benefit the user.

With digital x-overs the correction is as good as the skill of the user to characterize the drivers & to come up with the appropriate filter response to yield a time-coherent delivery. And, from reading Roy's letter to Six Moons - the link to which he provided earlier on - it's no easy feat to characterize a driver in the room. One cannot use 1 type of test tone, one needs to use many different types. And, one needs to measure the driver response in many ways to get an accurate characterization of the driver. Otherwise, the DEQX or Acourate correction will be (very) limited leading to less than stellar benefits.

I don't think that Roy can tell you how well DEQX or Acourate will solve your problem because the answer lies in how skilled you are in understanding the science behind how the driver response is affected by your room,
how skilled you are in DSP algorithms to come up with a filter that corrects for your room & your particular choice of drivers
how skilled you are in understanding the science behind reflections of drivers off the front baffle,
how skilled you are in understanding what the requirements are for selecting a microphone to do the driver characterization,
how skilled you are in compensating for this mic's own frequency response so that you don't misunderstand the mic's response to be that of your driver's,
etc, etc.

My understanding is that if you room correct like HT Receivers do & plug in the correction into some pre-designed filter in the software, you'll get a correction that's average at best & you might not like the results.
The thing that Roy has been saying all along is that we don't listen to test tones (which is what the room correction tones are) - we listen to music which is a bunch of partial wavelengths of various frequencies.
You use full cycle tones to characterize the driver then do the correction & then play partial wavelengths of various frequencies thru that driver - the correction to the driver, in my understanding, is invalid.
Of course, I could be totally off-base here....
FWIW.

Good questions.

I do agree with what Bombaywalla just posted- knowledge and experience in many different areas is required. I know of no way out of that, to simplify a home-designer's life.

Driver selection is by far the most important factor. If all we care about is making the best sound, instead of spending money on the newest technology (usually inferior, I find), then here are the important questions to ask before selecting any drivers:

- How far away will I be from the speakers?
- What kinds of music will I play most?
- How loud will I play, even if only on occasion?
- How large is my room?
- How low in the bass do I want the speakers to go? Here, it is best to use 'body feel' as your guide. If you want to shake the house and your lower pants legs on electric bass, then the speakers need to have good output to 40Hz, but not any lower.

Listening at ten feet away in a room that is not entirely open into the rest of the home, this amount of low-bass output requires a low-distortion eight-inch woofer with a large-diameter bass port tuned to ~40 Hz, or a sealed-box ten-inch woofer, flat to 40Hz (good luck finding that in today's marketplace), at the minimum. There is no reason to use multiple 8 or 10-inch woofers per cabinet.

Which means this will be a three-way design to be able to use a first-order crossover, since no 8 or 10-inch woofer can meet a tweeter.

On the top end, choose ~1" dome tweeter, not one made of metal nor of 'ring radiator' design. That means ~3kHz crossover point. The eight or ten inch woofer means ~300Hz crossover point, or slightly higher. And that means using a 4 to 5-inch mid driver showing no cone breakup nor the HF resonance of metal-cone drivers.

All these drivers need very flat frequency responses. Avoid drivers with impedance-curve wiggles, as those indicate resonances and cone breakups. Avoid molded plastic cones and metal cones.

Sorry- got carried away. I cannot put out my version of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook here.

Do know that, by careful manipulation of the Zobel parts in my passive crossovers, I can fine-tune the time-coherence between drivers (their individual phase responses), for a better blend. This cannot be achieved digitally without custom programming and the consequent extra signal processing (assuming the right measurements can be made, which is not likely).

But you can always listen to your adjustments, and for that process, I recommend you listen to only your left speaker, but not in mono. Start with getting that speaker's voice range right, such as on a older Diana Krall recording. And get rid of cabinet reflections with wool felt for at least the tweeter, or you are screwed from the beginning.

For a home designer, the results with a simple passive crossover with Zobels or with a digital first-order crossover/EQ/time delay setup will be satisfying on most music. However, the sound would still 'not be quite right' on enough other music to make you think there's something wrong with your source or room or cables or amplifiers.

That turns out to be the residual phase shift of the speakers, which is what I finally fixed .

I will continue to think about questions Bfwynne and Lewinskih01 posed and get back to you.

Best,
Roy

My goodness, I just glanced through the XO paper by Dr. Brüggemann. With all due respect, he is not right in many ways about how crossovers work!

The technical details are far too lengthy for here, but I will point out that, in Fig. 8 on his page seven, he described 'lining up the peaks' from a woofer, mid and tweeter. Instead, what must be done is to line up WHEN each driver's pulse JUST BEGINS to turn upwards from Zero. That's a point easily judged for the beginning of a tweeter's spike, but not on a woofer's slow rise (hence a measurement problem). Thus I advise not bothering with his paper, sorry.

The diagrams from Bombaywalla on his Picasa page DO get that starting alignment correct, although I see some problems:
- The scale used shows a definite starting point to the woofer's pulse. That point is not well-defined when the horizontal scale is expanded.
- The loudness of the mid driver seems low, but I could be wrong.
- The summation pulse is not close enough to the ideal.

But it is late now, and no one is paying me to analyze what may be wrong there- just wanted to point out some suspicious items.

Best,
Roy

Hey Roy.

Thanks for the thoughts again.

Thanks for pointing out that mistake in the paper, about aligning start times vs peaks. Seems something easily fixable by setting different delays in the software. So the software approach still is limited by all the previously mentioned aspects, but not an additional one :-)

I spent good time reading your website, particularly the development of the Calypso HD. Very interesting too.

In reality my system would be 4-way, as I have a pair of subwoofers I intend to continue to use. They are 12" Rythmiks in a sealed, DIY and very heavy enclosure. So below 80Hz I wouldn't need the woofers to get there, hopefully making their selection easier. Maybe an 8" woofer in a sealed enclosure does it?

I have by no means studied this at all so what follows has the goal of providing real-world examples rather than representing what I think might be best. I spent some time at Madisound.com to skim over the drivers they carry. These 3 woofers, non-metallic, from known brands. Sure, price was a simplistic way of focusing...I know it's wrong, but for this purpose...

Scanspeak Classic
Scanspeak Revelator
Accuton Ceramic

None of them is really flat down to 80Hz, let alone well below that. But they are quite flat to 100Hz, so the "problem area" seems to be rather narrow in the 80-100 Hz...hopefully not a huge deal.
Both Scanspeaks seem to be able to work well for a crossover around 500Hz. The Accuton maybe at 1kHz?
None showing wiggles on the impedance curve within these ranges.

The midrange was more difficult than I expected. VERY few drivers are flat within their expected range. Here are two looking good:

Accuton. This one looks as it could be used higher up, up to 5kHz per their recommendation.

SEAS. This one is a lot cheaper, but good on paper.

What's your take on ribbon tweeters? Clearly, you prefer non-metal dome tweeters, and non-ring-radiators. But why not ribbons? Or AMTs, such as Mundorf's? Their frequency responses look very good, and they extend well beyond 20kHz pretty flat...

I realize A LOT more thought needs to go into proper driver selection. But I am taking away that such selection is critical. Since I won't have the skills to design a proper passive XO, it could make sense embarking in all of this if the Acourate approach was good enough.

I won't get tired of saying it: thanks for the fantastic food for thought, and taking the time!!

Here's a simple un-tweak that may have helped just a little tweak (pun)... dunno.

For the longest time, I lifted the back of my speakers so they tilted forward. Here the old thought process:

My listening position is below the level of the tweeters. The speakers are about 44 inches high and my listening position is about 10 feet back. But my couch sits very low. I thought that by tilting the speakers forward, the tweeters would beam directly at me and treble would be improved.

Here's my current thinking, courtesy of this thread:

Lifting the back of the speakers as described may have augmented treble response, but the tweeter voice coils are even more forward of the mid and woofer driver voice coils than before the tilt forward. So ... to the extent there was time incoherence before, I'm just augmenting it.

So, at the expense of maybe losing a little treble, I attenuated an already non-optimal time incoherent situation just a tad.

Bottom line: it's probably in my head, but I think the speakers sound a little better. Little less bassey, a tad more coherent and invisible.

Btw, a couple of weeks ago, I switched back to the 4 ohm taps on my amp. There's definitely a noticeable change in coloration because the output impedance off the 4 ohm taps is lower -- and output voltage regulation is tighter. Bass is tighter and more extended. Upper mids/low treble are less bright.

But I also think the amp is "happier" with the load presentation because a good part of the speaker's power delivery demands are in the bass/low midrange region which specs at 4 ohms (70 Hz to 700 Hz). IOW, better impedance matching with the amp where it counts the most.

Still want to check out the DEQX.

Cheers,

BIF