Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

«Lastly, our observations about time-reversal symmetry breaking and the temporal
precision
of the auditory system suggest further research into this ecologically-relevant domain.»

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1301.0513

meditate about the last line of this article to understand what means the time breaking symmetry by the brain/ears of the Fourier mapping...

This symmetry breaking is associated with the way the ears/brain break this linear mapping symmetry because evolution for our own survival put us in the mode of tracking immediately the meaning of natural sounds around us...

It is why we are wired to beat the Fourier uncertainty limit in extracting an information Amir claim we cannot ...

But he never answered on this ...

He sold his marketing site not science .

And here some ask for my departure because they prefer hating Amir instead of debunking him with reason ..

What a world when people keep hate for years even if this is not good for their health ...😊

At least Amir never insulted me asking for my departure...

 

 

@mapman stated:

"2. If someone feels so strongly negative about another’s approach, rather than categorically trash the person (an increasingly common practice these days as more people follow bad examples they are exposed to daily), maybe start your own website that does it better your way and see where the cards fall?" 

Wise word for all, including Amir and ASR.  Have been following ASR for several years and initially found it interesting.  Over time it became clear there was an undercurrent of arrogance, group think, and rude behavior.  Attacks on people and companies in the audio industry increased without any real justification.  An ASR member typically starts an inflamatory thread using slurs like snake oil, charlatan, or audiofool.  Any call for reason is typically met with dismissive ridicule.

Wishes for legitimate and legal businesses to fail have been openly and proudly expressed by ASR members, arrogantly wrapping themselves in the shroud of science, physics, electronics, et al as the singular pinnacle of knowledge,  The multitude of posts from Amir in this thread, this forum, and other forums supports that characterization. 

All the measurement work Amir does taken by itself is great information.  Unfortunately, as @mapman suggested Amir and ASR are not satisfied to let the cards fall.  As self appointed monitors of the audio industry, singular speakers of truth, and saviors to the unwashed audiofools scrutiny and criticism is appropriate and well deserved.

There is one incident that revealed an ASR member questionable actions, later vehemently defended by the ASR faithful.  Amir performed a fair product review, but did nothing to address the blatant attempt to negatively influence his product review.  Amir and ASR faithful should not be considered pure, impartial or honest brokers only interested in improving the audio industry and audio hobby. Their mode of operation is not to let the cards fall.    

Anybody with a brain can see it ... A software engineer selling salad versus an acoustician and physicist as well known as Toole explaining why time decay matter and what it means for the non linear ALREADY PROVED working of human ears/brain in his own time domain ...

@mahgister, please don't misstate my background.  I grew up with electronics in 1960s as my hobby so naturally went to get my BS in Electrical Engineering.  I have managed hardware engineering at no less than three companies (Sony, Pinnacle Systems (now Avid) and Abekas Video Systems).  I put myself through college repairing all manner of electronics, both audio and RF.  Both my education and professional experience includes signal processing, the very topic you are referencing in those papers.  While I have extensive experience in software, networking, etc., that is not at all the net total of what I know.

Even if my background was just software, I don't see how that would matter with respect to technical issues I found in the paper.  As such, there was no need to appeal to authority in the manner you did, and proceed to put down my qualifications.

You adressed NO argument in all the articles i proposed, but jumped on one sentence asking for further studies as a proof that this van Maanen analysis is with no value but your Blind test debunking motivated by digital faith and no psychoacoustics value is truth ...

Excuse me, but do you think all people are idiots ?😊

No, but I wonder if they understood the very reference they put forward.

The paper is short and I must have quoted a third of it.  Not just one sentence.  You have responded to none of the points I raised with respect to flaws in the paper's thesis and message.

Simply put, the paper makes the obvious point that if you band limit a system and then feed it an impulse with infinite bandwidth (an dirac delta or impulse), you get ringing.  It then makes a giant leap saying such ringing must be a figure of fidelity and the less we have, the better.  No listening test results or psychoacoustics is reference to prove this.

He then says post decay is a figure of merit for fidelity and makes a bunch of unsubstantiated claims the analog systems are better, electrostatic speakers are better, etc.  He never measures these systems with his own metrics and simply pleads that the reader take those as valid.  Well, they are not valid as they go against solid body of evidence to the contrary.

None of your posts have used this decay measurement to show better fidelity.  No one in the industry or research is using it either.  It is just someone's idea of that is thrown out there and you are grabbing it and running with it.  And then expect us to accept it as gospel.  Why?  Because he has a physics degree?  That degree does not at all prepare you to understand psychoacoustics, or knowledge of audio fidelity.  I had to deal with another such physicist with somewhat similar claims.  See this video of mine:

 

By your author's definition, we should use RF amplifiers with bandwidth in gigahertz to have the best audio system!  Please don't reference this article without being able to explain all the flaws in it.

@mahgister, please don't misstate my background.

 

I apologize if i did reduce your experience field  as it seems. I dont know your exact background.

Then i dont understand why the articles coming from different researchers in acoustics were dismissed by you...

 I cannot  then invoke ignorance from you ...

 Then... it is simple matter for someone with your knowledge...

You cannot extrapolate from electrical gear specs to perception of specific acoustic  experience...

These acoustics articles explained why from different point of view...