Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Having seen and heard a lot over the years, I would assert that low noise and distortion systems all tend to sound very similar, as one would expect.

But what fun is everything sounding the same? Not any more than everything tasting the same. Everyone tosses in their own special sauce/seasoning to make things "better".

 

I find the same with home hifi sound. You start with low noise and distortion electronics then the world is your oyster from there. Toss in a pair of, for example, Sonus Faber speakers or apply some custom DSP or EQ to sweeten the pot. Maybe both!

Once you start with a solid foundation (good quality electronics which infers low noise and distortion), all kinds of good things can happen from there. So many choices at all price points for good performing gear!!

Otherwise, your options may be limited.

 

At least that’s how I tend to go about it in a practical manner these days,

 

As always YMMV.

 

Cheers!

No good quality electronics doesnt infer low noise and distortion. What is the level of noise and distortion that separates good from bad? What many dont seem to understand is that you can have components with higher levels of noise and distortion but that perform better in other areas which some deem to be of more significance. How then would you explain the resurgence of vinyl and tubed electronics? 

 

Since summarizing has great power, I'll just update my previous efforts to build a syllogism:

(a) Human hearing surpasses the ability of linear Fourier systems to resolve micro-phenonema in timing/frequency.

(b) Since FFT measurements use linear Fourier systems they may present measurements of audio systems that do not show these micro-phenomena.

(c) Therefore, using human hearing to design audio systems may achieve improved results over the measurements or, conversely, if there are aspects of existing systems that exceed the measurements those may be heard by human listeners.

Now, (b) is contested by Amir along several lines of argumentation per above, but what is not yet contested is that:

(d) There are no experimental results that demonstrate there exist audio systems that show (c). The easy way to do demonstrate (c) is with an ABX test with proper controls.

Therefore, we don't know if (c) is true.

markwd

what is not yet contested is that:

(d) There are no experimental results that demonstrate there exist audio systems that show (c). The easy way to do demonstrate (c) is with an ABX test with proper controls.

There's no universal agreement that an ABX test is the ideal way to test for anything.

Have you ever participated in a real ABX test - the kind conducted by real researchers and that involve multiple subjects? I'm guessing not, based on your apparent belief that an ABX test is an "easy way to demonstrate."

In real life, meaningful ABX tests aren't easy or pleasant. That's part of why audiophiles have such little use for them.

@cleeds No, I haven't, but have helped run human subjects in experiments, so I hear you! Achieving accuracy with human subjects is very challenging.