Speaker Placement


This is a tough topic for the newbies, and even some of us old guys. Regardless of the theory and even the software available, I suspect there is much that the more experienced among us could pass on with this problem. As you shift your speakers closer to the optimum position, what do you hear? What do you hear when the speakers are too close to the front wall, or when they are too far out? What do you hear when they are too close together and need to be moved further apart? What do you hear when they are too close to the side wall? What effect does toe-in have? What strategy do you employ to dial-in a new set of speakers or a new room? I am sure Albert Porter could help us all on this one. I will post some of my experiences if this topic gets rolling.
redkiwi
I saw some refreshing new insights into speaker placement at
www.immediasound.com/Speakersetup.html
Departs from rigid Cardas type perfect symetrical setup, and encourages different toe-in each speaker and trying
moving one speaker closer/further from speaker wall to acheive balance. Given the fact that almost no one has exactly equal hearing ability in each ear, and various
wall treatments and furniture placements this is worth reading and trying some ideas.

My PSB Silver-I speakers are 5ft from speaker wall, 6ft apart, and I sit 7ft back from speakers....classic nearfield
arrangement. However I do use different toe-in each speaker, and one speaker is 4" closer to acheive my preferred balance. All depends on your room and individual hearing ability.
Intersting Sam: My speakers ended up with non symetrical placement that was arrived at through trial and ear. The left speaker is 21" from the front wall and 6' from the side wall. There are (almost) floor to ceiling standard bookshelves directly behind it but there is also an open doorway to the left and behind this speaker. The left speaker has no toe-in and I some times partially cover the open doorway with a hall closet door that opens up to the doorway and cock it at an angle. The doorway has a pocket door as well, but I do not care for the sound when it is used in any position, so just leave it in the wall. The right speaker is 25" from the back wall with the bookshelves also directly behind it but is 8' from the side wall instead of 6'. This speaker has a slight toe-in. The speakers measure 5 1/2' from tweeter to tweeter. The left speaker fires directly into the living room and the right speaker (with toe-in) fires into the living room but also partly to the dining and kitchen area (the kitchen starts approx. 12' back from the front wall and the whole setup is a horseshoe arrangement with a center wall running half the length of the room (starting from the back wall and extending to the middle of the room). The center wall divides the living room and the kitchen. If the kitchen were completely walled off (which it is not as it has an open end) the setup would be the typical and dreaded "L" shaped room. The sound is fairly nice throughout the living room (especially on the left wall, opposite the center wall and where the sofa is located), but when I get serious I position myself in a chair dead center and 7-8 feet back from the speakers. There is a bentwood/cane settee behind/between the speakers that doesn't seem to make a great deal of difference in the sound. I can't decide whether it's good or bad is one way to descibe its effect. Although the speakers are very close together the sound stage often exceeds the boundaries of the side walls (more so on the left side wall), especially since the addition of the 300B SET amp and a pair of Svetlana output tubes. Swapping the small signal tubes in the amp not only changes detail and tonality but also the height as well as the width of the sound stage and the "size" of the instruments within the sound stage (if this makes any sense). Sometimes Krall has a huge mouth and sometimes it's smaller, depending on the tubes used. Because of all the new variables that I have been dealing with lately, I havn't posted much about the "current" state of affairs with my system. I am still trying to figure it out. I have wanted to post photos of this setup as it is one of the strangest ones that I have ever had, but it really sounds OK all things considered (not great but OK). Other than bookshelves on two other walls of the room I can't imagine why though.
My speakers are the Avantgarde Duo's with the latest 225 Subwoofer. Rest of system is Sony SCD1 to TACT 2.0 RCS to Art Audio Jota (a wonderful amp!)

Speaker placement has been a real experiment that I have put many hours into trying to optimize. Having the TACT 2.0 RCS has changed the equation dramatically, but once I got it right, WOW! My speakers ended up producing an incredible stage with detail - you would think there are 6 speakers spread around the room the way the stage is - and depth!

Key to success was using the formula George Cardas recommended for Nearfield listening: George Cardas "Golden Rule" formula as found on his web site:
Distance - Center of Woofer face to sidewall; Multiply Room Width by .276
Distance - Center of Woofer face to wall behind speaker;
Multiply Width by .447
This put my speakers 81.354 off of the front wall and 50.32 inches out from the sidewall.

Take the distance between the center of the right and left speakers and move your listening position to that distance from the front of the speakers.

I have only a 1" toe in on each speaker.

Once I did this, everything fell into a wonderful sound - the best I've ever had.

Give it a try!
Great idea Redman,
I began my placement process by following the 1/3 or 1/5 rule. I started with the speakers 1/3 of the length of my room from the wall in front of me. I then took 1/3 off that dimension to determine the distance from the side wall. This is a rough starting point as determined by one of a few rule of thumbs. I use the Stereophile test disk #2 and the XLO test & burn in disk which have a series of speaker placement tracks. The first thing I tried was using a white noise (full spectrum) track and walked around my room to locate the amplified and dead nodes. If my seating area (1/3 into the room) coincides (which it did) with these nodes I knew I must change my starting point. I moved the speakers ½" at a time in a diagonal to keep the relationship from the walls. Once I had a rough location with no node problems I tried an out of phase mono recording from the XLO disk. The sound should appear to come from all directions with no discernable source. This proved to be an invaluable track on the XLO disk. I worked this and the white noise tracks back and forth until I again had both working. I then used an in-phase mono track to work on pinpointing (toe-in) the sound to a very small point location. These were my start points, there are a number of other tests which are helpful, but these were my major tests. It was now time to listen to some familiar music. I find female vocal jazz quartets to be excellent tools. The voice should appear to be centered (if recorded centered) and stay in the center as I move side to side and front and back. If the voice is too large, not sounding like it came from a mouth then I'd toe the speakers in. If the spot was too tight I'd toe out more. To get the spot to remain centered I moved my listening spot for and aft until it became very stable. Now using a disk with more instruments I could look at sound stage width. The stage should be as wide as possible without losing my center spot location. Back to the jazz vocal I now look for depth. The drum and bass should appear behind the singer. The horns should have a defined point with space in front and behind it. If this depth does not appear (like mine) I tried moving the speakers forward or back ever so slightly. There is a magic spot that the speakers work with the room to bring it all together. The last thing I look for is bass definition. Again I found forward and back impacted bass. A stand up bass should have a definite location, and the note made from the pluck of the string should appear well defined, almost like a round spot. This needs to remain focused down to the lowest notes. If your not dialed in the note will appear to flatten out, and if real bad it will stretch across your floor. These speaker movements were tinny for me in the end. I'm talking 1/16" and the focus would clear up. (That's after a lot of time to get real close) The entire process took about four hours the first time. I listened for a week and reworked it four or five times. It helps to enlist a friend with good ears who is not so close to the process, mine was very important in the final sessions. Once we were sure of our location, we measured the speakers back and side corners to the wall, it turned out one speaker was slightly off of the other. Once we re-aligned them to be exactly the same, one last toe-in and it was indeed there.
So what do I hear now? Every instrument is easy to locate, even when there are 10-15 instruments. They appear within there own space, with room in front, back and on it's sides. When it's well tuned this should not be a stain to hear, but simply the way it is. The center image is tight ( in a realistic way) and does not move from the center. The stage appears to extend well beyond my speakers, but not so far as to lose the center image. The entire presentation comes alive, as if it's in your room, it took a long time but it is extremely natural and not a strain to find all the instruments on stage. I think it's just trial and error, just keep playing. My friend and I tried to better the sound by starting over once and the speakers ended up within an 1/6" of where they started, just a bit further back. I kind of think there is a spot they belong, and if it's the right one you'll find it again. Some of these features my have had as much to do with the tweaks I've made as did speaker location, I believe they do work hand and hand. I just started a post on the tweaks I did this year, it's titled "the winters lessons". Above all, have fun with it, it's not a race. If all else fails but a Bose wave radio. J.D.