Speaker Preferences?

If a speaker's finicky positioning scares you, then don't get it. There's a lot of other brands out there.

You bet it does, and that is why I said "Those seem like even greater reasons to stay away from that speaker line to me...."

Why do I want to waste years hoping I've finally got it right, yet never knowing if I did? That kind of situation just bothers me, and I WILL obsess over it. For me it is very simple... Rives Audio designed my room and gave a central location that would work best for the speakers, then my Wilson dealer came out and found the voicing did actually fall within those areas suggested by Rives Audio. I've even measured the speakers in and around those positions and I'm happy to say that the dealer and Rives Audio nailed it!

I have no idea who sets them up better. The point is, if it takes that much work to set them up, and no one is qualified until they've spent a year with it (like you have), why would I care to torture myself?!?

The Wilsons are not hard to set up, I learned the voicing technique partially before the dealer arrived, and the rest after he got there. I needed help with learning to hear the "swimming voice" sound once you get too far from the closer wall boundary and start getting feedback from the opposite wall. My friend and I found the same relative area as the dealer on our own using the WASP technique. The dealer was actually pretty surprised that we managed to locate the general area on our own. There are actually acoustical correspondances between the areas where the ceiling soffits end and the tray ceiling begins (basically where the greater room volume begins and the smaller part of the room opens up) that correspond with the zone of neutrality. It was a cool experience, because it taught me something about how acoustical space anomalies can correspond to "localization" and "focus."

JKalman,

If I had the money to get a Rives room, it would be much easier to set these up.

It's all about how you approach it, if you find tweaking is a negative, then don't tweak it. You wont get the best sound out of an ML because there is SO MUCH potential there. If you're the type of guy who just leaves well enough alone, not only is ML not ideal for you, but perhaps hi-end audio in general.

Most change components, move things around, add a few room treatments here and there.... I don't know of any audiophile who just leaves it as is from the getgo.

All I'm saying is that there is more than meets the eye with these MLs, and most dealers (not all) are not setting these up right because of lack of dealer training and lack of care. Whether or not you care to "torture" yourself with it is your prerogative, that's not the moral of the story. Now that I've lived with mine for a year, it takes me not any longer than setting up any other speaker... I know what I like and I know how to make my Summits sound good in terms of positioning. Much akin to you and your WP8, I bet you have more insight into how to set up your speakers in a new room if you had to move... moreso than when you first got them.

So please, dont start with the ?!?... I've been on your side on a lot of things, J.

Joey

If you're the type of guy who just leaves well enough alone, not only is ML not ideal for you, but perhaps hi-end audio in general.

I'm not the kind of guy who leaves well enough alone, that is exactly the problem... The last thing I need is a speaker that creates even more problems with the setup process. This is the same reason I bought an SME TT. I'm not looking to spend all of my time tweaking, because given the opportunity I will spend ALL of my time tweaking.

I'm moving treatments around the room at this very time funny enough. I took Rives' recommendation to replace the absorption panels with BAD ARCs and I'm moving the extra panels around the room to see if I like the extra absorption. I spent a week locating all of the impulse response reflection spikes with ETF 5 and pieces of fiber board (I found all of them except one, that I believe is on the bookshelf in the back of my room - I'll be working on that as soon as I take care of the others permanently). I'm waiting on regular BAD panels for the ceiling 1st order reflection points.

Worst of all, my obsessiveness with all of this has lead me into studying acoustics and electrical engineering full time, because I end up wanting to tweak my own understanding of all the concepts involved in things I enjoy. I don't do anything half-arsed... I General Contracted my room construction and drove everyone crazy trying to do things perfectly.

So please, dont start with the ?!?... I've been on your side on a lot of things, J.

"Take nothing personally."

That is a good motto to remember when posting online. Perhaps you are misinterpriting the "?!?." All it means to me is emphatic confusion. It doesn't equate with a personal attack on you, it is meant to equate my question with strong confusion (as those speakers would be more work than they would be worth to me).

By and by, they wouldn't work in my room anyway. My room is not designed for electrostatics because their placement is so unconventional compared to many other types of speakers.

I do want to say (or type) though, I hope you are never on my side if you don't think what I am saying/typing is true. That wouldn't be good for anyone.

Understood J.

But I don't think that MLs are alone in the fact that you have to take the time to position them well. Sonus Faber needs them, Quads need them, Magnepans need them, etc.

The last time I was at a dealer for a Sonus Faber demo, he took a laser guide and adjusted the Sonus Faber speakers with it - pointing the laser guide towards a unified point behind our heads at listening position. Then he began to adjust the rake and everything along with it.

This was a dealer who knew how to set up a speaker.

I asked him how he learned. He told me Sumiko makes sure he sets them up right everytime. He also told me he goes to each house and sets them up.

Reminds me of Wilson dealers really.

Then I go to Tweeter... where all they do is line up the Logans along the wall next to other speakers, usually uneven and one corner is usually the door (i.e. open area). Then people wonder why they sound bad.

It doesn't take long to set up MLs right really. I've played with different positions for about a year now and I have figured out what I find best.

Major toe-in, ear level at mid-panel (possible minor rake forward if seat is too short or far), pull away from wall.

That's pretty much my requirement. So you can see, it takes me 3 minutes to set up a newer ML right... and if you see me at a Tweeter or Magnolia. Usually I end up fixing their placement... probably my neurotic side kicking in.

It really doesn't take long to set these up, not any longer than setting up a pair of good speakers. Every good speaker needs time to be set up.

Joey

a badly set up electrostatic speaker is usually better than most cone designs, properly set up.

i heard a mg 20, poorly set up at the golden nugget in a small room. as bad as the acoustical environment was, what i heard was superior to any cone design i auditioned before and after hearing the magnepans.

most cone designs give an unsatisfying presentation of instrumental timbre. the best you can do with them is select classic tube gear to cover up the faults of these speakers.

panels rule, don't be a cone fool !