Speaker recomendation

@soix  Hard to believe how tone deaf people can be.  How does @audiotroy not see the terrible impression they are making for themselves by their condescending, negative comments about owner's appreciation for gear they don't happen to sell?  My son is graduating with a Public Relations degree this coming Saturday.  I can only imagine how difficult it would be for him or anyone else with the requisite PR understanding to rehabilitate the despoiled image of @audiotroy .  Who shops there?  🤔😧

@audiotroy It’s like talking to a wall. Somebody else wanna help me here? This has nothing to do with my "opinion" of you or anything else here. It has everything to do with documented facts and your unethical behavior on this site. I apologize to the OP that this discussion has taken this turn, but there is a serious violation by a retailer going on here that cannot be left unaddressed. It’s apparent to me now that @audiotroy is so arrogant and enamored of his own products that he actually doesn’t see how what he’s doing is wrong, or he’s so hell-bent on selling his products here that he doesn’t care. Either way, it’s bad.

"One of the reasons why we post is the complete lack of understanding that many of the forum writters seem to lack."

This is the essence of the arrogance. You know better and other opinions are wrong and need to be corrected by asserting that the product YOU SELL is better. Case in point...

"Do you want to know of an Aria compettitor that sounds just like an Aria yet costs $600.00 less? It is called a Unison Reserach Primo an 80 watt tube solid state hybrid amp from Italy any of you guys like to do a shootout in our shop with an Aria. By the way, never said the Aria wasn’t good we haven’t heard one, just the last series which was nincely made but didn’t wow us."

That you would say this after the discussion to this point shows you just don’t get it. And again in my case earlier...

"The Acoustic Zen are okay speakers and were never worth their original price point we heard them on numerous shows. Also they are not 96db efficient so they are not going to play as loudly as easily to fill up a large room as the Legacy’s."

When you write that immediately following my recommendation for the AZs you are disparaging another member’s recommendation and a competitor’s product in favor one THAT YOU SELL. It matters not one bit that you think you’re right or that you may be helping the OP make a better decision. As a retailer promoting your products here you inherently give up the right to criticize other products as several other reputable retailers here duly respect.

Ok, I’m done here. I can’t make it any more clear except to say, @audiotroy if you continue to behave this way and speak negatively of other products and recommendations in favor of your own products you will incite the ire of many more members here and irreparably damage what’s left of your reputation here. Peace out.

I absolutely agree that it is best for the OP to use a high sensitivity speaker. The Legacy Focus may work, but I don't consider it's sensitivity to be high. The spec is stated as 95.4db (2.83V @ 1m), however since it is a 4 ohm speaker, this is a 2 watt rating. The 1 watt rating should be used for comparison to 8 ohm speakers, and that is 3db lower or 92.4 db. This may still be too high. Stereophile reviewed an earlier version of this speaker that was spec'd at 96db (2.83V @ 1m), but measured 94.5db (2.83V @ 1m), so an actual 1 watt rating was 91.5db.

Using a high sensitivity speaker will increase the probability of accurately reproducing the wide dynamic range of classical music in a large room and also allow use of the current amp, Moon 340i, to achieve this. For that 10k price, IMHO, this should be on the list to consider.

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue62/athenas.htm

Soix you are entitled  to your opinion about us, but you are mistaken. 

The reaon we mention Legacy is that the Focus is one of the very few loudspeakers that is affordable and can play loud enough with enough bass to fill up a giant room and the speakers are attractive and they can be made in many different finish options to fit in with someone's decor and they sound fantastic and they are 95.5 db efficient.

The Tekton's would also work and are very inexpensive even the DI Se are only $6,500.00 and they would do the job nicely for this gentleman, the only issue with those is they are big and boxy and kind of ugly for most people''s Living Rooms and in our opinion the Tekton's are a bit recessed in the top end and detail department. 

We started with Legacy  for this very reason, high power handling, high efficiency, very deep bass, easy to drive and attractive with a huge sound stage and great detail how many $11k speakers offer all of these options? 

Of course the OP has to like them what is interesting is how many people have heard Legacy at shows and have been blown away by them. 

The other options are much more complicted and probably not Living Room/ Wife acceptable. 

One of the reasons why we post is the complete lack of understanding that many of the forum writters seem to lack.

Not everyone desires a set of giant subs in their Living Room, perhaps the OP doesn't mind but don't you think someone should ask that first?

Carmenc, we never bashed the Acoustic Zen's we didn't say they were terrible we said they are okay. Again if the Zen's were so wonderful you would be reading about them, people would be talking about them seems like they pretty much disappeared from the converstation a number of years ago.

"We hear way too many times a recommendation based on some weird product from a company that has not really received the kinds of universal accolades that a product of the price range should receive.
That is not to say that the review based world is purly objective but when a companies products are so rarely shown or reviewed or owned or raved by many reviewers it has a lot to say about the company."

This is a simple statement, it simply states that  great products generally gain market mommentum, when you can't find almost any mention of Acoustic Zen's products in years that is not a great sign that their products are competitive. 

Yes Soix, I am sure the OP is going to get on a plane and fly to our Jersey City office to purchase a pair of Legacy's from us. I highly doubt he is located near us so please explain how we are selling these speakers agian?

As per bashing Belles, we had Belles gear in house not this series and the sound was not remarkable. Again for all the Belles fan's what have you compared it to have you listened to our recommended amplifier that also has a lush  tube like sound better still it actually has tubes in it. 

Do you want to know of an Aria compettitor that sounds just like an Aria yet costs $600.00 less? It is called a Unison Reserach Primo an 80 watt tube solid state hybrid amp from Italy any of you guys like to do a shootout in our shop with an Aria. By the way, never said the Aria wasn't good we haven't heard one, just the last series which was nincely made but didn't wow us. 

You guys need to carefully read what we write. Saying a product is okay is not bashing it, okay means not bad but not great. 

Yes Carmec, all the brands we sell which are many of the major brands in audio are junk I guess, Conrad Johson, Manley Labs, Lumin, Aurender, Innuous, T+A, Electrcompaniet, Unison, KEF, KEF Reference, KEF Blades, Dali, PSB, Legacy, Quad, Paradigm, JL Audio, Micromega, and ATC, Mytek, Naim, Parasound, M2 Tech, Benz, Lyra, Acoustic Systems, April Music, Cary Audio, Rega, Nottingham, Anthem, Nuprime, Wireworld, Audio Magic, AQ, Nad, Aqua Hifi, and a number of others, yes these are junky brands, what you smoking? 

Before you jump to your erronous conclusions why don't you pick up the phone and actually talk to one of us and see if we can't guide you into better sound who knows you may actually like our suggestions.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@hifiman5 ...a big +1 to you and a +2 to @soix .  They seem to bash Belles as well whenever they get the opportunity which really displays a sense of idiocy.  Then I realize they’ve probably never even heard Belles.  Never bash anyone’s gear or taste in music I say.  Most of what I’ve seen that they sell is junk!  Oh boy, I guess I broke my own rule.........

@audiotroy -- No, that doesn’t help me understand "your points" at all. It’s an irrelevant and incoherent rambling -- and of course containing yet another ad for the products you carry -- that is a sorry excuse of a defense of an indefensible and harmful act here on Audiogon. Where to start?

"We hear way too many times a recommendation based on some weird product from a company that has not really received the kinds of universal accolades that a product of the price range should receive.
That is not to say that the review based world is purly objective but when a companies products are so rarely shown or reviewed or owned or raved by many reviewers it has a lot to say about the company."

Well I certainly can’t argue with this, mainly beacause I have no idea what it means. But it has nothing to do with what you did here.

"Soix you miss the point, there are other posters who have talked about products we don’t sell and we tell them sure go check them out like the Focal Sopras, and the Magico A3."

Again, this has nothing to do with what you did here.

"As per recommending Legacy, at least they have displaying dealers not that many but if you look at their dealer page at least they have some decent dealers that someone may be able to actually drive to, please let me know how many displaying dealers throughout the country have AZ loudspeakers available for demo?
Soix if you noticed we said the AZ speakers were okay that doesn’t mean we think they are terrrible but ask yourself if the speakers were new would you shell out $25k for a set and even at $12k are there perhaps better alternatives."

And you think I’M the one missing the point here? SERIOUSLY??? You’re once again comparing speakers I recommended to the OP in a relatively negative light to the speakers you recommended here AND SELL!!! You should not be expressing negative opinions on other products and recommendations in any way while you’re promoting your own products here at the same time. PERIOD!!! It’s a pure conflict of interest that makes you look unethical and undermines your credibility here. 

@falconquest -- That I don’t like that audiotroy pushes his products here is irrelevant and you miss the point entirely. The Legacys could be a fine recommendation and I’ve never said or implied otherwise, but again that’s not the point here.

Bache Audio's extraordinary augmented widebanders are my favorite high end speakers.  There are five models ranging from $3K to $15K, and designer/owner Greg Belman will let you try them in your listening room.  I recently replaced my Merlin VSM's with the Bache Metro 001's.

Here is a paragraph excerpted from Laurence Borden's July 2014 review of the discontinued Bache 001 for Dagago. I think it gets to the heart of the augmented widebander advantage:

"In a typical 3-way speaker, the crossover point between the midrange and tweeter is typically between 1 and 2 kHz, which is smack-dab in the region to which our ear is most sensitive. No matter how well designed a crossover might be, the tweeter and midrange drivers invariably differ in their dispersion characteristics, transient response, and distortion characteristics. Making matters worse, the crossover often introduces phase shifts. Although these differences are often not recognized per se (except in especially poor implementations), they become apparent when they are absent, as they are in a speaker based on a wideband driver. As implemented in the Bache Audio speakers, the Tangband covers the range from about 100 Hz to about 10,000, or almost seven octaves. Not surprisingly, they are superbly coherent. As a result, music has a wholeness — or oneness, if you prefer — that makes it seem more lifelike. One has a sense of being more relaxed while listening, a trait I find very desirable in a speaker. Not surprisingly, instruments that span many octaves — like the piano — are especially well served, yet all instruments benefit".

Here's the link to the full review:

https://www.dagogo.com/bache-audio-001-loudspeaker-review

  

+1 for the Legacy's. Despite the fact that you don't like dealers hawking their wares I believe the Legacy's would be a great choice for this space.

Soix, way too many people have over inflated opinions of products that are mearly okay, that they for whatever reason they personally love. 

You may think this applies to us as well but if you examine our product portfollio our products are mostly main line well respected manufacturers that can provide proper service and support as well as making some of the best sounding and top rated products in the industry at their respective price points, we sell: Kef, Dali, Paradigm, Legacy, ATC, ELAC, Cabasse, PSB, JL Audio, the only really micro sized company we endorse is the Rethems, which we got for their sound quality and novel steam punk look. 

In the past we had Acoustic Zen, Jantzen, Usher, Esoteric, Amphion, Polymer Audio, Escalante, and System Audio, Gradient, and probably a few other brands we forgot about. 

We hear way too many times a recommendation based on some weird product from a company that has not really received the kinds of universal accolades that a product of the price range should receive.

That is not to say that the review based world is purly objective but when a companies products are so rarely shown or reviewed or owned or raved by many reviewers it has a lot to say about the company.

We used to sell Acoustic Zen cables and speakers although we did not sell the more expensive Crescendo we did sell the lesser model. 

We had them on display and they were good speakers but in the annuls of audio for a $4k price point there are a lot of other companies products we would prefer to own and recommend.

The AZ cables were good, better then the Harmonic Technologies cables but in term the AZ cables were bettered by Audiquest, and Nordost and Wireworld cables which we moved into later.

Soix you miss the point, there are other posters who have talked about products we don't sell and we tell them sure go check them out like the Focal Sopras, and the Magico A3. 

If you look at the myriad of loudspeaker choices too  many weird difficult or impossible speakers to demo makes potential buyers loopy.

As per recommending Legacy, at least they have displaying dealers not that many but if you look at their dealer page at least they have some decent dealers that someone may be able to actually drive to, please let me know how many displaying dealers throughout the country have AZ loudspeakers available for demo?

Soix if you noticed we said the AZ speakers were okay that doesn't mean we think they are terrrible but ask yourself if the speakers were new would you shell out $25k for a set and even at $12k are there perhaps better alternatives. 

The likelyhood of us by endorsing Legacy is going to make the OP magically apear in our shop to purchase a pair is doubtful as the OP is probably on a different Coast then  us.

If you notice we have been recommending Legacy for years because they are a screaming bargain for the sheer quality and amount of sound quality for the money.  They belong in a rare class of high end audio  products which are a huge value for a hand made American product with really high quality European drivers.

Hope that helps understand our points.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ 

@soix A Big +1 I quickly lose respect for any dealer that disparages a brand they don’t sell and then promotes a brand their audio emporium carries. Worse, as you pointed out, they were basing their opinion on hearing them at shows. Anyone who has listened at shows know that conditions there are problematic.

Lastly, Audio Doctor, you broke a cardinal dealer rule....do not knock the equipment of a customer or gear you don’t carry. Extol the positives of what you do carry to your bottomline’s content but never...☹️

We might have a similar space / issue....

have a 36’ long x 15’ x 10’ to 9’ sloped feiling with wall of windows cantilevered over view of Puget Sound ( So drapes and acoustic treatments on those windows ain’t happening- we opted for a mix of Totem floor standers and in ceiling for fill with switches on the in ceiling only.
having said that. This is not my primary 2 channel critical listening rig.....
the questions about music, use and what wall are speakers going on are spot on
??????
i ran AMROC on your room assuming 9’ ceiling.... certainly some very interesting nodes going on, might seek some room treatment help, several mentioned GIK, Lambvin, Acoustimac, ASC all really good, as others may have mentioned a sub with EQ might be good and or DSP


beware dealers running other product down..... enjoy your search !!!!!

Hey @audiotroy -- It’s one thing for you to come on here and try to peddle your wares. I don’t personally like it and find it quite tiring, but okay, it is what it is and I just put up with it. But when you start disparaging honest product recommendations from other members -- like mine above for the AZ Crescendos -- by using your own personal opinions (based on audio shows no less) and to push your own products, that is NOT COOL AT ALL!!! The purpose of this site is NOT to be an advertising vehicle for your business and for you to be able to discourage the sale of competitors’ products based on your personal and biased opinions. In fact, that’s the exact OPPOSITE of what this site is all about and the value that it brings. 

Are you planning dance parties when you have more people over? Or classical and jazz cocktail party only?

The reason I ask is you could get either great aesthetic speakers or excellent audio quality big box coffins for that price. Probably not both. The aesthetic designs won’t be trance dance party capable but would look elegant and do jazz and classical ok at low levels.

I just heard Legacy Audio(Focus SE) speakers for the first time. I think they sound really good and represent outstanding value. I would love to hear the Aeris as possible replacements for my speakers.

Revel F228be + Anthem STR Integrated.  You’ll have plenty of power, ARC to help tame errant reflections in the room, a beautiful set of speakers that can play louder than you’ll ever need without breaking a sweat and can handle anything from light acoustic jazz to full orchestral recordings to heavy metal with aplomb.  

Plus, with the STR Integrated you get real bass management so if you want to add a subwoofer or two later on it’s plug-and-play easy.  

My listening space is 16.5' X 34' w/cathedral ceiling. I built a pair of custom Tannoy HPD 315 (ca 1975 12" dual concentric drivers), that are rated at 94 db sensitivity. I get very enjoyable sound with either a 500 Wpc Class D amp, or a 9 Wpc SET 300B.

You may want to opt for the 15" version for your situation, should you consider them. They treat all genres of music equally well (with the possible exception of Hip-Hop or electronic synth, which I've never heard through them). I used vintage drivers, as I could not afford the current Prestige line of Tannoy, which are beautifully enclosed in fine cabinetry.

Tannoys will reflect improvements made in the gear that drives them, are explosively dynamic when called for (they still scare me at times, even after eight years of listening to them), and are very robust.

Just another avenue for you to consider, and in my mind, a very suitable one for your needs.

Best of luck, regards,
Dan

The Acoustic Zen are okay speakers and were never worth their original price point we heard them on numerous shows. Also they are not 96db efficient so they are not going to play as loudly as easily to fill up a large room as the Legacy's. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

There's a very nice demo pair of Acoustic Zen Crescendo IIs here now for $12k.  They are an easy load so should work fine with your current amp, but they will certainly reward you for upgrades down the road.  Best of luck. 

You have a couple of good options, the Tekton’s are a great value, they are however, ugly as sin and are a very boxy looking speaker, we have heard them at two seperate demos and the speakers do a lot of things well but are a bit on the recessed side. 

You can get a pair of Legacy Focus for $10k and they move a lot of air, have very deep bass and are very efficient 95.6db and they sound fantastic for all music. The Legacy’s are quite attractive for a good sized speaker and can come in many different veneers so you and your wife can find something that you both like.

The Golden Ear Reference are a decent choice they are a love or hate in terms of their looks and sound quality, we have heard them Golden Ear Reference twice and both times were not blown away.

You need a big speaker with prodigous bass, which means a physically large speaker, you can go the other route and use subwoofers, but then you have an acoustic integration issue as well as one or two large and ugly boxes in your living room.

As per amplifier, you can most likely find a nice power amp to use with your integrated and viola you have a nice new setup.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

I have a similar space and a wide range of musical interests (renaissance to 20th century classical, chamber to full orchestra and chorus, classical rock to jazz, female vocals. . . ). My 14.5x23' living room is at one end of a huge 23x45x16' space. I wanted to be able to listen while seated in the living room near the speakers, but also fill the larger space with music during other times. I tried various speakers and ultimately settled on Zu; I now own a pair of ZuDef4s driven by a 300bSET. But it was trial and error - both for the speakers and the amplifier. 

Check out the new Bob Carver line arrays with integral sub's. They can certainly fill your large space!

The GoldenEar Reference has some flaws in the upper treble, and integrated subs are almost never a good idea.

1) Get drapes/curtains. Room treatment in general would be very benefifical, $750 goes a long way, Acoustimac is a good site, I’d get a lot of their 48”x24”x2” panels (or short/narrower, but you want the same thickness).

2) Probably Salk SoundScape 7F for the speakers, or the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower with RAAL upgrade for 90% the quality at 50% the price ($3K vs $6K).

3) Get dual subs, that room is very large, even in close proximity the bass will be too low. Dual Rythmik F15HP’s would run you $2400, they have very low distortion and are very fast. If you want them in a custom finish, Salk buys the drivers/amp from Rythmik, but makes a better cabinet (thicker and more bracing), and you can get them in whatever finish you want (if getting the Salk speakers, you can get them to be perfectly matched), dual of these would run you $3600 plus shipping.

4) PSAudio’s Stellar Gain Cell DAC and S300 Amplifier combo for $2700 ($3200 if purchased separately). An excellent DAC/preamp and an excellent amp.

5) If you are tech savvy, I would recommend $300 for a MiniDSP 2x4HD with mic, which would allow you to DSP correct the speakers and subs. If you are not tech savvy, no big deal.

OP - Where did you get the idea that the Golden Ear References are better for rock than other types of music?  I have heard the model Ones and found them to sound quite good with a wide array of musical types.

Was in your position precisely and bought the Tekton Double Impacts. They are perfect for your room size, will work with your budget, and, easily, have enough volume and dynamic range.
If you research these, pay attention to DI speaker owners, not disconnected responses. You will note that all real owners of the speaker praise it wholeheartedly.
Eric Alexander, the owner, is fine to deal with if you are straightforward. Make him promise to send you the grills if these are needed.