Amen...
Speakers The single most critical component
I know we've been over this Q hundreds of X's over the past 20 years here on audion, You can find dozen of topics dealing with this Q <which is the ,,,,most important component...>>
well time for yet 1 more topic dealing with this,, perhaps unanswered, un-resolved issue.
I'm bringing up the old hachet due to my recent experience acutally hearinga FR in my system.
Let me tell you, there is not even 1 traditional/conventioanl/xover design <The Boxed Type>> in the world that could convince me , there is something that will beat out FR (caveat, FR requires some sort of high sens =sensitivity, tweeter) in the Boxy world of speakers.
That is to say, FR + Compression Horn is the future of 21st Century high fidelity.
One lab has already brought us these ~~~SHF~~~ aka SuperHighFidelity single drivers.
The code word here is ~~SHF~~~ which can not never be employed when describing xover/trad/conventioanl style aka The Box designs. db level under 91 are _<<IN-EFFICIENT>> , = dysfunctional, out dated, old school , = Dinasaurs.
For amps, I only consider tube amps (PP and SET) as ~~SHF~~~ I can not include ss amps in this topic.
IMHO all well made tube amps sound very close,
a kt88 in brand X will sound close to brand Y.
So amplification takes a distant 2nd place in critical component. No need to break the bank buying amp A vs a lower priced kt88 amp B
CD players, nearly all tube DAC's , tube cdp-ers sound close. No need to braek the bank over X vs Y.
My Jadis DAC is only miniscule gain over the Shanling,
the Shanling
only a miniscule gain over the Cayin CD17.
Now as for best source , phonograph is the ideal playback medium vs cds.
I have some LP's now , but my main collection are classical cds, most not on LP version. Cables , I did note some gains employing silver/copper wiring throughout my entire system including inside the Defy.
Tweak worthy.
New Mundorf caps in all componets, tweak worthy.
Yet the main central component remaisn the speakers.
Here is where the entire audio resolution either rises to Nirvana or falls to <<distortion/muddy waters,/pollution/anti-fidelity voicing issues.
Your system's fidelity is ultimately dependent on what speaker you have chosen to employ.
Forget all you've learned over the years,
The new mantra is <,The speaker is key component>
All else is just extra tweaks/nuances.
To sum up, a ~~SHF~~ driver will match even the top of line Wilson weighing in at hundreds of lbs priced $$$$$$$ overa single FR driver.
FR beats out any/all xover box design speakers. Mostly due to that key specification ~~db level~~~ which is everything in speaker design and thus in resolution/fidelity.
well time for yet 1 more topic dealing with this,, perhaps unanswered, un-resolved issue.
I'm bringing up the old hachet due to my recent experience acutally hearinga FR in my system.
Let me tell you, there is not even 1 traditional/conventioanl/xover design <The Boxed Type>> in the world that could convince me , there is something that will beat out FR (caveat, FR requires some sort of high sens =sensitivity, tweeter) in the Boxy world of speakers.
That is to say, FR + Compression Horn is the future of 21st Century high fidelity.
One lab has already brought us these ~~~SHF~~~ aka SuperHighFidelity single drivers.
The code word here is ~~SHF~~~ which can not never be employed when describing xover/trad/conventioanl style aka The Box designs. db level under 91 are _<<IN-EFFICIENT>> , = dysfunctional, out dated, old school , = Dinasaurs.
For amps, I only consider tube amps (PP and SET) as ~~SHF~~~ I can not include ss amps in this topic.
IMHO all well made tube amps sound very close,
a kt88 in brand X will sound close to brand Y.
So amplification takes a distant 2nd place in critical component. No need to break the bank buying amp A vs a lower priced kt88 amp B
CD players, nearly all tube DAC's , tube cdp-ers sound close. No need to braek the bank over X vs Y.
My Jadis DAC is only miniscule gain over the Shanling,
the Shanling
only a miniscule gain over the Cayin CD17.
Now as for best source , phonograph is the ideal playback medium vs cds.
I have some LP's now , but my main collection are classical cds, most not on LP version. Cables , I did note some gains employing silver/copper wiring throughout my entire system including inside the Defy.
Tweak worthy.
New Mundorf caps in all componets, tweak worthy.
Yet the main central component remaisn the speakers.
Here is where the entire audio resolution either rises to Nirvana or falls to <<distortion/muddy waters,/pollution/anti-fidelity voicing issues.
Your system's fidelity is ultimately dependent on what speaker you have chosen to employ.
Forget all you've learned over the years,
The new mantra is <,The speaker is key component>
All else is just extra tweaks/nuances.
To sum up, a ~~SHF~~ driver will match even the top of line Wilson weighing in at hundreds of lbs priced $$$$$$$ overa single FR driver.
FR beats out any/all xover box design speakers. Mostly due to that key specification ~~db level~~~ which is everything in speaker design and thus in resolution/fidelity.
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- 353 posts total
All what you say after miss the essential point... No , I nailed the essential point, which I stated very clearly,.... you have to pick speakers that work in the room. Crap speakers in a great room still sound like crap. Great speakers in a crap room will still sound pretty good just like great speakers with entry level electronics will still sound pretty good soooooo it all comes back to the most important thing to get right ... speakers, which are therefore the cake...... a great room can’t fix bad speakers so you start with speakers everything else is icing Although not ideal, you can mitigate a lot about a bad room by listening in the near field , there is nothing you can do to overcome bad speakers i’ve had the same speakers for 20 years because they work for me in my room |
No , I nailed the essential point, which I stated very clearly,.... you have to pick speakers that work in the roomNobody will argue that we must choose first a relatively good speaker set...If the essential point is what we must do first, you win....😁 But for me it is NOT the essential part at all.... This is EASY to buy a relatively good pair of speakers, very easy.... BUT Controls of the room are NOT so easy to install... Second you have not understood my point: The comparative change and upgrading value of a room BEFORE and AFTER controls installation EXCEED the difference between the choice of two relatively good speakers.... Think a minute about the number of people owning already a relatively good pair of speakers versus the number of people owning a relatively rightfully controlled room... There is no COMPARISON between the 2 numbers...the first number is huge compared to the second one.... I dont speak about the number of people here who would say that their room is good.... I speak about a room REALLY under controls... But you missed my point because you cannot imagine what is a controlled room and how powerful it is.... Most people think that they own a good room already....It is an illusion... How can you know the effect of acoustical control when you never lived through it? I speak about controls of the room not only room with some bass traps and some passive materials treatment...I speak about an ACTIVATED room versus a passive room... Anyway keep your illusion... But here is a test: If you want to know if your room is under controls, listen to The Three penny opera 1958 by Kurt Weill with Lotte Lenya and if you could listen the orchestra playing in front of you, seating in front of your speakers, but the singers voices coming from your back wall where there is no speakers, your room is under acoustic controls....Acoustic is the cake and timing tresholds of the first frontwaves are the key....Anybody could buy a good pair of speakers but it is the room controls which will decide what you will hearing or not.... I bet that if you pass the test all orchestra+singers will be in front of you but who knows?....This the difference between the musicians in your room and you being in the scene "enveloped" by the sound experience.... I use this exceptional recording of Kurt Weill because the sound engineer make possible this test so good his recording tech. was.... By the way the acoustical characteristic or concept i described in this test is called the "listener envelopment" or LEV... No speakers will give you this experience of the " listener envelopment" at any price in a bad room.... Then in a word: speakers are REPLACEABLE, room are not, especially a room under controls...... And most people claim the opposite: their beloved speakers and costly one are irreplaceable, and their room is replaceable or secondary and their room is always OK anyway in their mind, so much the importance of the speakers design weight more than acoustical laws....... The truth is ANY speakers must be adapted first to the geometry and size of the room where it will work for sure, but a room without controls will not create miracles even with speakers well chosen for it .... This is the meaning of my affirmation.... |
This is EASY to buy a relatively good pair of speakers, very easy.... BUT Controls of the room are NOT so easy to install... the thread is about the most critical component, not about what is easy and if you hire an expert in room acoustics the room is also very easy Then in a word: speakers are REPLACEABLE, room are not, especially a room under controls...... You are going on and on about modifying the room..isn't that in effect "replacing" the room? No, not the walls, but you are replacing how they react to the sound waves so you are effectively replacing the room. But you missed my point because you cannot imagine what is a controlled room and how powerful it is.... how do you know what I missed or what I can imagine.?? . My room is under control, The RT60 is perfect, it is lively enough without being too lively, The soundstage is expansive and coherent.. it sounds fantastic.. but back to the beginning...the original point of this thread..it is not about what is easiest, it is about what is most critical... crap speakers sound like crap no matter what you do to the room AND you can mitigate the room by listening in the near field ... . Speakers are therefore most critical Start at the other end... envision the perfect system.. Wonderful speakers in a wonderful room with a wonderful front and and amplification. Then you are forced to start taking things away and replace them with entry level stuff one by one. Where do you start, what is the last thing? Maybe you start with cables or power conditioning. along with some tweaks. Then sell the DCS Vivaldi stack and get a decent DAC. At the end... Sell the $330,000 Wilson Chronosonics or get rid of the room treatments? Of course you keep the speakers , you keep the most critical component... case closed , and I'm outta here |
and if you hire an expert in room acoustics the room is also very easyI created my own "mechanical equalizer" which act on the room being part of it...It was not easy like buying speakers... AND you can mitigate the room by listening in the near field ... .It is not true i know it because all change in my room act on the nearfield listening... Save perhaps with big speakers in a small room but even with it then the room would not be able to help the speakers ....Speakers size must be in relation with the room.... Start at the other end... envision the perfect system.To win your point you start with a costly system, most people dont own costly system... Anyway i state my point and i dont doubt that your sound is very good your speakers also.... But all my system will be crap for you seeing it with a value of 500 bucks all in all... I can assure you that my S.Q. will surprize you thanks to acoustic control.... Try my test with Kurt Weill and listen the singers ....If they comes from your back where there is no speakers then the room is not only good BUT under controls.... If not, the sound is good but the room is not under controls... Simple.... A room under controls must recreate the original acoustic settings of the live event when recorded.... The critical component for me is the room.... And for sure for someone owning for example some speakers costing 100,000 bucks, the thing to keep is the speakers not the room.... But when we speak about critical component with speak about what is critic S.Q. wise not about money.... I listen to a system on the net youtube the owner brag about it because its value is one million dollars...Mine value is 500 bucks... Do you think he will not be angry by my observation? One thing is sure this man put his system in an undercontrolled room and the sound is unnatural....Not musical...Very detailed....Even through my own system..... Then.....People confuse details and quality, and often spectacular constrast in sound with timbre naturalness.... This one million dollars system is in a good room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7lxYAaJ_oo&t=457s This one million dollars system is in a bad room : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr8O_jZhpl4 What is the most critical component here? The room..... |
- 353 posts total