@noromance- You would need 7 units to handle such a load which might not be practical besides it's my experience that optimal performance comes from using as less such units as possible. So less is better...
Nobsound springs are relatively stiffer and might work well for such heavier loads and as you pointed out they are working very well for you. You should be all set. Enjoy the music.
Thanks.
|
Folks,
I have just ordered three Feet of silence from Solid-Tech for my turntable on their website. Solid tech has already shipped it from Sweden and I am expecting it to be in the US within a week. I will let you know its performance once I have it in my music room.
Thanks.
|
Hello,
I got the delivery of Solid Tech Feet Of Silence footers this AM. The delivery was lickety spilt, all the way from Sweeden and I didn't have to pay any Customs duty for this purchase. The footer design was excellent ad it does move in all directions as advertised. I have just installed three footers underneath my Clearaudio turnable and listened to it. The sound was ok without much adjustment. I have to do the load adjustment tomorrow, which is really the key and see if it addresses the footfall issue. If it does then I have found a commercially made spring isolator which isolates above 2-3 hz at least in the vertical direction. I would keep you all in the loop,
Thanks. |
Hello,I have been experimenting with springs for sometime and I have the Nobsound springs/disks as well. What is important here, in my opinion, is to get the correct set of springs that for a given load bring the resonant frequency of the platform with the load to below 5 hz. Without that you are likely not going to get much benefit although they might sound better than any tightly coupled solution.
Also you have to pay attention to asymmetrical load distribution of the component which would require different set of springs under the platform. I prefer putting the springs underneath the platform instead of directly coupling to the component because that allows you to design isolation in the horizontal/rotational directions on the platform like roller bearings.
The good news is that none of these challenges are insurmountable if you have time to experiment. In the end I agree with you all that isolating your audio/video components and addressing the seismic vibration challenge is the way to go...Thanks.
|
@noromance- Glad to hear the improvements that you are getting out of the springs. Does it provide isolation against footfalls/subsonic frequency band?
Thanks |
Hello,
Thanks a lot to all who provided valuable feedback to my turntable level question. I am still a novice when it comes to setting up a turntable and I am learning a lot from the current discussion. There is a possibility that my platter didn't fit exactly as it should on the body of the turntable. Musical Surroundings folks replaced the platter of my Clearaudio turntable a few months back and they put a newer version platter making the required height adjustment of the tonearm. I am suspecting that something went wrong in that installation but the problem is how do I prove it to them and have them fix the issue. The turntable plays ok without a visible issue....
|
@noromance- A few tips on using the Nobsound springs. This unit is a clone of a much expensive item called Iso Black manufactured by a Swedish company Solid Tech. Here is the URL: https://www.solid-tech.net/isoblack/. They used to have a manual which documented the most effective layout of the springs when you are not using all 7 springs. You can download a copy of that manual from the Audio Advisor website who is one of the Solid Tech dealers in the US. Here is the link: https://www.audioadvisor.com/pdf/SolidTech_Isoclear_Application_Instructions.pdf. Follow these layouts for the maximum performance. Also be careful about putting the black rubber mat on top/bottom of the aluminum discs. In my case they added too much damping effect to the sound. You might want to try the discs w/o the black mat first and use it only if there is any audible ringing. Hope that helps. Thanks. |
@rixthetric- Yes I tried using rubber band on the footer which was at the top point in a triangular configuration to increase the spring rate. This indeed help me with balancing the turntable better w/o hitting the bottom but it didn’t resolve the footfall issue. In fact adding spring rate led to more frequent bouncing of the spring as I anticipated and that was counterproductive when isolating vibrations in the sub sonic domain...
@mijostyn- None of the footers including Solid Tech as I experienced could bring the natural frequency down to 3hz. I initially thought that these footers were isolating footfalls but I was wrong. I had a low pass filter on the Luxman phono pre amplifier which was turned on by mistake... When the flipped the switch back to no filter the woofers started moving...
|
@noromance- That is very true for a concrete floor...While it doesn't absorb all the seismic vibration issues but it allows these tools to work optimally relatively easily. You are one of the lucky folks to have the advantage of a concrete floor and can focus more on the music....
Thanks. |
@mitch2- I saw the pictures of the springs that you are using. Quite impressive!!! Where did you get the end caps and also the rubber cover for those springs? I wanted to use it for my springs and appreciate your feedback/help.
Thanks.
|
@millercarbon- I haven't used springs with any end caps or jackets. Those items add damping to the springs and sometimes it could be a good thing if the springs are very bouncy which adds a little ringing to the sound. But too much of damping is bad for isolation and also for the sound.
That is the reason why I don't use the black rubber mat on the Nobsound aluminum disc. In my system using Nobsound w/o rubber mats produces much open/better sound.
I wanted the jacket because my springs are all softer springs with a very low spring rate. Some of them are wobbly enough to cause twisting/deformation under the load. If the spring movement is not free then that works as a damping factor and I wanted to have the jacket to eliminate it to whatever extent possible and measure the performance.
Thanks
|
@mahgister- I completely agree with you on loading a spring to 3% of its max spring capacity to get the max isolation. I am also working with springs for sometime now. I face two issues when working with springs
1. Spring rate. If you want to get the isolation start around 3-5 cycles for a given load then you have to select springs of very light spring rate. That would lead to using more springs underneath a load and it tends to make the sound harsh, a symptom of ringing...
2. It's important that each spring underneath the load carries equal weight which should be close to 3% of the spring max load bearing capacity. In reality most of the electronics have asymmetrical load and it makes the positioning of these springs difficult underneath a load and very difficult when isolating heavy components like amplifier.
That is why I haven't spent a lot of money in buying a commercial product like Townshend or Solid Tech which would be super expensive yet not solve the 2nd issue.
What I need is a product that would be able to weigh a component and get me the CG location along with its weight distribution in quarters. That would allow me to design & also position the springs underneath any component accurately and w/o any guess work.
Thanks.
|
Hello, I spent last night adjusting the load on Feet of Silence footers and got it to work. I am excited to report that the footfall issue with my turntable is now gone which I couldn't accomplish using the Nobsound discs. The soundstage has opened up quite a lot as expected with better imaging, depth and clarity. The speaker disappeared much better than it did before. So I am happy with its performance but not completely satisfied with the price to performance ratio. I will continue listening to this set-up to see if there is any change in the performance over time. I am not able to compare it with Nobsound discs because I was not able to get Nobsound springs work/eliminate footfall when placed under the turntable. However I have previously used Nobsound discs under heavier electronics and coming from that experience I can say that the Solid Tech feet of Silence footers do offer a much better performance. Better in terms of overall clarity, imaging and the speaker disappearing factor. As I mentioned before Solid Tech design being able to isolate in more than one dimension allowing smooth spring movement is expected to perform better but its price to performance ratio didn't impress me... In my experience, the spring based isolator performance regardless of its design/price depends on the load sitting on top of it. Utmost care should be taken to ensure that every spring is compressed to 97/98% of its max load. Without that sound could appear to be bloated, bass heavy and veiled besides surfacing footfall issue for few turntables. For Nobsound discs, I measured a set of 3 discs each having one spring can cary a max of 18.5 lbs (approx). So this configuration needs to be loaded with almost 18 lbs to be able to get to the desired isolation point. Each spring/disc should need just a slight finger touch (not press) to get to the bottom and you should hear two discs touching each other. Any further load, you are not going to get the real isolation benefit. What I have stated here is purely my experience and I am not trying prove any theory or point... @uberwaltz- What you are describing sounds like a less than optimal load situation with Nobsound springs. These springs are stiff and can take a lot of load. These discs can be used with one spring and hence your two spring per disc layout should work. You can refer to the following manual to see how a two spring layout could be implemented. https://www.audioadvisor.com/pdf/SolidTech_Isoclear_Application_Instructions.pdfIt is a Solid Tech manual but it works for Nobsound discs... Hope that helps. Thanks. |
@mijostyn- I couldn't agree more on that 3hz isolation level. That is our target. However getting to that 3 hz natural frequency with compression springs needs a special focus on the load interms of weight & material that to me is the most difficult factor....That is where you are playing with balance, precision and the level of damping of the surface.
Thanks. |
Hello,
When you guys put spring based isolation devices or any such floating devices do you ensure that the turntable is absolutely leveled? I use a circular level at the center of the platter to level the table. Normally w/o any footer my turntable is 100% leveled but with the springs underneath the table the most I can get is the bubble stay inside the circle but not as leveled as before. Does that even matter?
Thanks.
|
@rixthetrick- Good question on the money... If this technology which I don't think is a huge deal goes mass-market then these footers are not going to cost more than what Nobsound charges. But that will never be the case because there would always be a market in the audiophile community for every such product at every price point perhaps more than what I can even imagine.
What would really help me and perhaps others in such spring based isolator products are
1. These springs could be self twisted or adjusted for leveling and also for calibrating the desired spring rate. Townshend says that they have this feature but I am not sure...
2. There should be an indicator, may be a mark on the body of the spring indicating the 97-98% load such that you can calibrate the load very easily and accurately
3. The design should allow absolutely free movement of the springs in any direction
If there is one design point of Solid Tech feet that wins hands-down over Nobsound it would be the free movement of the spring (in any direction) w/o twisting or deforming it under the load.
Thanks.
|
@toetapaudio, @mijostyn, @mahgister- Thanks for your feedback. I will have to adjust the turntable feet height to make it 100% leveled. With springs underneath it sounds like another time-consuming adjustment work that I have to add to the mix....
I have worked with inner tubes, have the Ingress roller bearings to address the seismic vibration concern but what I have experienced is that it always comes down to this finer calibration/load adjustment factor which is very manual and very time consuming. You can easily spend hours without getting the desired results... I wish there are tools available in the market to complete this load adjustment step quickly and accurately. Yes I am familiar with Stacore platforms, another super expensive isolation solution but I doubt it comes with any load adjustment/calibration tool without which the total investment becomes worthless. Interestingly very few manufacturers talk about it let alone building it in their products.
I would love to get all my components isolated from the seismic vibration and I am ready to pay for a commercial solution but just not ready to make a huge investment yet spend hours in setting it up to get the maximum isolation.
What are your thoughts on this point?
Thanks.
|
@mijostyn- Thanks for your such a thoughtful response. In my experience the isolation set-up process always is a precision job regardless of the component being a turntable or not and it takes a good amount of time. I would rather spend that time listening to the music...
For me taking turntable to a different room would be a lot harder option and even then I have to isolate it to get the best performance. So I am exploring other options like isolation platforms, wall mounting etc. Currently I have a Clearaudio turntable and a Luxman phono amplifier. Going forward I would be likely getting a Acoustic Signature turntable which would be 3-4 times heavier than my current turntable. But that would happen only when I am able to get an isolation device, platform or footers, working to my satisfaction in my room.
Thanks.
|
@millercarbon- Great idea and very easy to implement. I would try and report back the result.
Thanks. |
@millercarbon- The debate between coupling i.e cones and isolation i.e spring/air/magnet/etc as an effective vibration measure will perhaps continue for ever. However I have moved from using Mapleshade brass cones under every component to spring/air isolation and couldn't be happier. Beside the positive impact what I love the most here is the consistency of these tools. They all sound very similar if not the same every-time I use them under any component, unlike brass footers.
Thanks.
|
@toetapaudio- Are you using slate on top of the springs as a platform for the roller bearings which either support the component directly or through another shiny surface that allows the most free movement of the component?
Are you using marble on top of the Ingress roller bearings? If yes then did you face any ringing issues?
Thanks.
|
@mijostyn- What you stated is exactly the issue that I am facing with springs and it is true for any electronics as it is true for a turntable. For any component, if you want to get the resonance frequency to somewhere below 3 cycles then you are working with a. softer springs in general, b. they are loaded to the max around 97-98% of the spring capacity, c. each spring is carrying the same load. Satisfying these conditions underneath any load let alone a heavy amplifier or a very fastidious turntable is going to be extremely difficult. That's why I keep looking for a tool which gives the CG location of a given component and/or something when attached to a spring shows the load that it's carrying.
Without those tools/guidelines embedded in the product even Minus K or Stacore platforms are not going to be very effective....
Beside this load adjustment issue you have to deal with the type of the platform that hosts the component. You need to make sure that it doesn't adversely impact the tonal balance.
It is because of these issues none of the products or ideas on the isolation currently available in the market provide a plug and play solution, in my opinion....
Thanks.
|
Hello,
It appears that this thread has gradually started moving away from the central discussion point, isolation... In order to get it back to the track let me solicit feedback on another aspect related to the vibration isolation. After putting springs, inner tube, magnet or what have you in that space how do you measure the effectiveness of the tool beside listening? How do you know that it is isolating in the range of 3-4 cycles and there is no more room to improve? I tried using a few free andriod apps measuring vibration but they don't seem to be accurate. Curious to know about your thoughts/experience on this.
Thanks.
|
Hello, I was thinking of sharing the spreadsheet that I put together to design a spring with a targeted natural frequency with this group. You might already be doing it but just thought of sharing...
Item- Clearaudio Turntable
Total Load (3 Springs) = 23.79 lbs Item No (Century Spring)-S942
Spring Rate (Lbs/Inch) = 2.75
Spring Rate (N/M) (k)= 612.94
Spring Outer Dia = 1.39 inch
Spring Wire Dia = 0.07 inch
Spring Total Coil = 5.75
Spring Free Length = 2.75 inch
Spring solid Height = 0.40 inch
Load (m)= 7.93 lbs Spring height at the load 7.93 lbs = 0.48 inch
Spring Natural Frequency = 2.077 hz by using the below formula
Formula = 1/(2*Pi)*SqRt(k/m)
Excel Formula = =((0.5*(1/PI()))*SQRT(k/(CONVERT(m,”lbm","g")/1000)))
Another point that I wanted to highlight here is the importance of load and spring rate to get a spring natural frequency, something like 3hz. In this example, I needed to load each of the three springs to a compressed height of 0.48 inch leaving only (0.48-0.40) = 0.8 inch from the base to get a natural frequency of 2.1 hz. This also shows the degree of difficulty in arranging these springs under the turntable such that each one has a compressed height of only 0.8 inch from the base platform, something @mijostyn has pointed out earlier. Apologies for dumping a lot of numbers here but I thought this might be interesting to this audience. Thanks.
|
Folks,
Another basic turntable question.... Where do you put the level on the turntable to balance it? Is it at the center of the platter or on the body which hosts the platter? The level position at the center of the platter for my turntable is not the same as it is on the body.
Those who are leveling at the center of the platter, how do you level it after putting a record on the platter? The center of any record is not flat and hence this question. This is more of an issue for those who are balancing a turntable over a set of springs or some float-based isolation tools.
By the way I have tried a Vibraplane platform, incredibly heavy, to isolate my turntable from the footfall noise but it didn't work to my satisfaction. So far the combination of CSC springs that I designed along with Ingress roller bearings gave me the max isolation from the footfall issue. It doesn't completely eliminate it but reduces it to a great extent, requires a very big hit on the floor/amplitude to move the woofers in the speakers. I think that audiom3 has also experienced something similar.
It appears to me that a complete footfall isolation for my turntable placed on a wooden suspended floor would be very difficult to achieve if not impossible. I am now going to experiment with the next option of wall mounting the turntable and also use some sort of isolation (Spring or HRS Platform) to get to the desired level of seismic isolation....
Thanks.
|
