Stillpoints or Audio Points, has anyone compared

Warren,

I use a heavily modified PD65 as a transport with all BlackGates throughout the power supply, Harris Freds, solid silver wiring, Canare BNC, etc.

Extremely modified Audio DAC 1.2 with all Black Gates, tantalum resistors, solid silver wiring, Audio Note Copper Caps, Audio Note Siver Digital Interface transformer, NOS Amperex Orange Globes, Audio Note silver "Interstage" Transformers which bypass the digital filter, custom HMS internal IC's, Canare BNC,....

Supratek Chardonnay preamp with WE 350B's, 1952 Sylvania 6SN7's, Mullard 5AR4, upgraded pot to a DACT, Auricap upgrade, by-passed selector switch...

PS Audio HCA-2 with Black Gates in the signal path and solid silver output wiring.

Heavily modified Newform Research 645's.

All HMS Gran Finale IC's and DIY solid core silver speaker cables.

Warren, do a search here and at AA. Many have moved on from Audiopoints. That is not to say Audiopoints aren't great. But like so many things they are system dependent.

The Audiopoints (cones) made absolutely no difference to my ear over the DH Labs Ceramic cones and I don't think the Audiopoints threaded speaker spikes scould penetrate my carpet. I have a 13 x 20 ( ? ), very heavy and tightly woven Persian carpet on top of a carpet pad and I don't think the Audiopoints ever got through. I also tried them with the coupling discs that Robert recommended. They were awful with the discs and only marginally better without them.

As I said, I suspect the Sistrum products are very good, but not in my application. The difference between the Vibrapod solution and the Audiopoints was night and day.

Fiddler, you obviously have gone to great lengths regarding the tweaking to your components. However, why not provide here the same level detailed response as to how you applied the Audio Points?

To what components did you install the Audio Points under (ie rack, speakers, and all components at the same time?)?
How long a break-in period did you allow for, and perhaps most important, what racking system you used throughout this time period?

In other words, to realize the full benefits of the Audio Points, the methodology (coupling) has to be applied everywhere.

Assume for the moment that you are using zip cord for all of your cabling needs. You then install Jena Labs top of the line speaker cables, and one pair of their ic's but you leave the other pair of zip cord ic's in place.

You would probably notice a nice little improvement, but most likely not worth the $10k you just paid for these cables, and you'd probably want Jena Labs to refund your monies. But when you install that last pair of Jena Lab ic's and allow for proper burn-in, your system is now singing a whole new song.

Same principle rightfully applies when installing Audio Points (and perhaps other similar products) everywhere. However, if you are using some cheap Ikea-like coffee table, mdf boards, or even a much more expensive and popular isolation-type (de-coupling) rack for a racking system, your performance bottleneck will be the rack. You should still realize small performance gains just by installing the Audio Points, but that's the extent of the benefits.

Again, for real night and day improvements, it truly must be an all or nothing approach.

For the record, I have never seen(execpt in mags), touched, nor smelled a Sistrum rack. Small, yet noticeable, improvements were gained after installing the Audio Points under each component. But the fantastic night and day sonic improvements were only after I installed Audio Points on my own custom rack (which also adheres to the coupling methodology) and speakers and then only after about a one week mechanical break-in time period.

I'm fully aware that Y or O MMV and every system is different, but that's not the point. The point is the commitment to a complete installation to fully realize any serious benefits.

-IMO

Stehno, what is this "mechanical break-in"?

Stehno, your logic is flawed.

You write:

"In other words, to realize the full benefits of the Audio Points, the methodology (coupling) has to be applied everywhere.

Assume for the moment that you are using zip cord for all of your cabling needs. You then install Jena Labs top of the line speaker cables, and one pair of their ic's but you leave the other pair of zip cord ic's in place.

You would probably notice a nice little improvement, but most likely not worth the $10k you just paid for these cables, and you'd probably want Jena Labs to refund your monies. But when you install that last pair of Jena Lab ic's and allow for proper burn-in, your system is now singing a whole new song."

Hogwash.

I have heard big differences when changing out one set of IC's or applying vibration control to just one component. Is the improvement cumulative? Certainly, but if you are telling me that Audiopoints can only work in an "all or nothing" approach, then I will tell you they aren't as effective as Vibrapods in MY SYSTEM. The Vibrapods were very audible upon only being installed under my speakers, not my whole system.

The effectiveness of applying the Vibrapod sandwich to my speakers after trying the Sistrum spikes for five days was immediate and dramatic. Helen Keller could have heard the difference.

Once again, if the Sistrum spikes are so much better, why would I have to "Sistrum" my whole system to hear a difference? Robert was confident that I would hear an immediate difference upon installing the spikes on my speakers. Well, I did hear a difference and it wasn't pretty. After five days of trying the spikes, with and without the coupling discs, moving my speakers, etc., I gave up. I finally went out and bought the materials to make the Vibrapod sandwich and the difference was staggering as soon as I hit the play button.

And if the Audiopoints are so effective, then why would I not hear a considerable difference just because I was using the "cheap" Lack Table for my components. If the Vibrapod/Formica solution worked incredibly well on the Lack Table, why not the Audiopoints!

In fairness, I heard no difference between the DH Labs cones and the Audiopoints on the Lack Table without the Vibrapod/Formica combo in place. Not until putting the Vibrapods/Formica solution between the cones and the Lack Table did I get a tremendous improvement.

So what is the common denominator here? Vibrapods. On both my speakers and my components, same result. Without the Vibrapod/Formica setup on my transport, I could feel incredible vibration with my hand; I had horrible soundstaging, bloat and confusion. Immediately upon installing the Vibrapod/Formica idea, not one bit of vibration could be felt on my transport no matter how loudly I played heavy bass material. And my system took a huge leap.

(BTW, I forgot to mention in my first post that I also have dedicated lines and isolation transformers on each line, Acme cryoed silver outlets for each component and Virtual Dynamics power cords.)

Stehno, I am not saying Audiopoints are not great. Maybe they are in your system. Not in mine. No big deal. When we build our new house and I build a dedicated listening room, I will certainly try an entire Sistrum approach at that time. But I will have a concrete pad for my room, as well!

Suspended hardwood floors are just a different animal than concrete pads. So much energy is transferred to the suspended floor and subsequently to the components as compared to a concrete pad poured upon the ground.

I think with a concrete pad, coupling with a Sistrum system makes sense. Get the vibration to ground as quickly as possible. But a suspended hardwood floor is totally different. Since the energy is absorbed by all of the construction materials, everything simply vibrates wildly until the energy is converted to heat or finally finds it way to ground. Enter the Vibrapod solution for the suspended hardwood floor. Immediately convert the resonant energy to heat at the source! Makes perfect sense to me and in my room, there is no argument. One solution works immaculately well and the other is only a marginal improvement over nothing.

In December, I will have my business paid off. At that time, my income will approach seven figures annually after losing the burden of a huge business loan. I am changing my speakers, amp and my transport (possibly Meitner gear - or just a high-end transport for Audio Note DAC which I think is incredible). I will keep my HMS Gran Finale IC’s, probably my DAC and my Supratek preamp. One of my first efforts will be to find the right high-end solution for a rack system, along with speakers, transport and amp. Much will change, but I will still have the suspended hardwood floor. Time will tell what the best solution will be.

In the meantime, I am glad the Sistrum products work for you. I have found what works in my room and that’s all that matters. Maybe you like horns….I don’t. To each his own. The most important thing is to find solutions that bring us the most musical enjoyment and I am ecstatic with the results I am getting with my current modest setup.

Fiddler your speakers as you described previous were never direct coupled to the floor underneath the carpet and the Persian rug combo. If you had removed the Persian rug and tried the use of Audiopoints under your speakers I feel certain the points would have penetrated the normal pad and carpet thus coupling the speakers to ground. Today I installed Audiopoints under a set of Revel Studios and a pair Sistrum platforms under a pair of the large Revel subs. The room has a supended floor over a crawl space. The floor was laminated of 1/4 cork between two layers of 3/4 inch plywood. A wool felt pad was used under a wool carpet. The Audiopoints and the Sistrum were installed after the same system had been in use for over a year. The Audiopoints made a great improvement not subtle ..much better focus much less blur to the bass. Sistrum platforms were then added under the subs..Much tighter, less cabinet noise finding its way up into the midrange, deeper bass faster and less intrusive into the music. The key I feel is that the points must be direct coupled to the surfaces that they come into contact with. Why succeed in decoupling a device that is a coupling device. Speakers I feel really need to be coupled and for many reasons. One great one is for better phase and time alignment. The self induced cabinet motion of a decoupled speaker playing music on a carpeted floor will be greater than the excursion of that same speakers' tweeter. So much for time alignment. I am a dealer..Tom