2. tech-talk
  3. 135904-110926

Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
shadorne's avatar
Ag insider logo xs@2x
shadorne
7,477 posts
 
Yup. Some Girls just confirms my experience with HD tracks is they are more money for POS recordings. Really annoying to pay more for less quality. I will never buy from them again as there is no quality control - just high prices.
glupson
7,842 posts
 
Thanks, geoffkait

The only release that would correlate with my LP would be 2009 so it may be that "unknown" source is vinyl. I am aware of compression/dynamic range arguments which indicate that anything with less dynamic range is much worse-sounding than uncompressed. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.

Having said that, my friend's comment when I played him that 2008/2009 LP and then 1980s CD was "This is worth a criminal charge". CD is so much more unpleasant to listen to that it hurts. According to that chart, 1980s CD has significantly better dynamic range than 2009 release. I am no big analog vs. digital fan and I have CDs that sound great and records that are not that great so I do not think it is that kind of bias.

Of course, there may be a few variables. My CD was Made in Germany and it was in those early years of CDs. I do not know if there could be any difference between that one and the one used to measure dynamic range for this chart. Something like German vs. US release, or wherever that evaluated CD was made. "Unknown" source from 2009 does not necessarily have to be my LP although I bought it around that time and it is the only option in the chart. Who knows, maybe I just prefer very compressed recordings.
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Guys & Gals (got an email from one of the gals who asked to be included). So just wanted to say "hello ladies". I’ll be using "Guys" or "folks" or whatever as general terms for saying "hey gang". Thanks for the emails too. I’ll do my best to be here, facebook, TuneLand and by email, but if I fall behind please be patient with me, as soon as I’m caught up with clients and my own listening I’ll be back at it.

You guys have been very kind with your private emails, thank you! It’s a lot of fun for me.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

jafant's avatar
jafant
19,818 posts
 
Thank You- MGthat is quite a bit of gear! I can remember you talking/writing about the 6 rooms full of gear prior to landing closer to the Strip. I look forward in reading more about the Music that you are digging here or over on Tuneland.
Happy Listening!
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
1,019 posts
 

Hi Falconquest

When I first started my relationship with HEA (late 70’s early 80’s) I was hit with my first blast of "highendism". It’s a language and personality that is a mixer of Electrical Engineering, science, Webster, compulsive RTA & blind fold testing, Male ego, empirical testing, physics, neuroticism, myth making and marketing. I think I said earlier, my friends in the entertainment biz warned me to stay as far away from HEA as I could. It reminded me of the different types of studio engineers, techs, producers and artist. When you take something as cool, and young, as stereo and begin to "tech-no-fy" it I have found that the best way to approach it is, be careful to what you lay claim to (credit for), and be humorist in your private world, while trying not to engage with those who have learned enough to be dangerous but not necessarily accurate. And (and this is an important one) always keep in mind of the folks who aren’t speaking up.

For every one person that is speaking an opinion out in the open there are a 100 not saying anything. In todays info world that may even be more like 1 to 1000, who knows.

HEA has created it’s own paradigm that exist with it’s own unique set of words and rules, that outside of HEA, makes little sense to onlookers. I always say "guys it’s not that hard" but HEA hates that type of simplicity. For example, HEA has sold the myth that these over built, beautiful looking, heavy, expensive, complicated, discrete audio components & speakers are better at reproducing sound. Yet the reality is, they actually play less of the recorded signal than does something with lower mass and simpler build. The writing is now on the wall that HEA’s over built and over priced products are on their way to the dinosaur archives, but the transition is hard to go through for those of us who have bought into our big system comfort zone.

Along with the products themselves going through the transition, the HEA marketing starts to look suspicious. The sales tool of trying to make audio more difficult than it really is, is all part of the paradigm of trying to sell HEA as a more advanced hobby than it really is. The more the listener is mystified the longer he or she hangs on to the hope that one fixed sound is going to be the answer to playback, even though everything about music playing, recording and playback is a variable science. As I and others point out the transition should have taken place back in the 90’s when the reviewers were actually on this path to tuning, but the HEA revenue world didn’t want to let go of it’s new found wealth. It was a paradigm of guilt marketing, greed, incomplete science and eye candy.

Quantum, discrete, isolation, dampening, compression, NASA, EE, inert, first reflection point, transparency, revealing and many more that are a part of the selling of HEA aren’t necessarily being used in the truest sense but have been turned into tools of convincing a certain part of the public of HEA to defend the market. You take a forum like this and throw in a little internet trolling and limited experience and you can see why the transition is taking so long. But the more you have folks like Tjbhuler speaking out, the easier the pill is to swallow.

also I want to throw this in from Geoff

"There is much confusion over what quantum physics is, what audio devices employ quantum physics or operate via quantum mechanics or quantum physics. However, it might be a little bit of an overreaction to condemn all audiophile devices marketed as quantum devices as hoaxes or suggest deception or lack or integrity. For example, the CD laser itself operates quantum mechanically, or any laser; they are “two dimensional quantum wells.”

And one more thing that you guys should think about studying are the "fundamental forces". A lot of audio is easy to figure out if you have taken a course in, or even study on the internet, the interaction of the Earth's forces.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

More to discover