Technics SL1200: Baerwald or 1200 white gauge?

HI Mark,

Naw, you're not rude in the least. I live near Boston. Trust me. I know rude. ;-) It is often hard to get meanings across through forum posts. This is especially true for me since I am pretty challenged with the written word. Dammit Jim! I'm an engineer, not a journalist.

I am not saying you are wrong to consider yourself done with alignment. I suppose I'm just forcing my version of "done" as it applies to cartridge alignment. When I was a kid and would bug mom about when dinner was ready, she would always say "it's done when I say it's done".

That is my opinion regarding cartridge alignment. It can always be improved, and Yip has given us the tool to do so. I've done this alignment process several times and I do agree that the most immediate and noticeable improvement comes with that first session. I agree that this is because of the improvement in setting the overhang. However I have gotten more improvement since with a few more sessions where I am mostly trying to improve the stylus alignment with the cross hairs.

Now, some of this can indeed be contributed to finding better lighting and visual aides. The better you can see that tiny stylus on those tiny lines, the better you can adjust and the better results you can achieve. For myself, each time I improve my ability to see what is happening on the protractor I find that there is room to improve. And what I'm experiencing goes right along with what Yip has told me about what is possible. The issue is that after the first session or two the adjustments require finer and finer motor skills in order to nudge the cartridge ever so slightly one way or the other. I will agree that going beyond this point is bordering on obsession. But it is an obsession driven by the rewards in the improvement of playback due to better alignment.

Rtollert,

You'll need a lot more mathematics than that to worry me. :-)

Seriously, I don't dispute anything you have offered. I believe we are all aware that there are many, many forces acting on our cartridges. Some we can do something about, many we can't.

I am not familiar with the OC9 and what stylus profile that cart uses. I also have no idea how you set your table up. All I can offer to you about the possibility of improving what you have now is to perhaps contact Yip and ask if will give you a trial period. He is a very nice guy and I've not heard of anyone who hasn't been completely satisfied with how he has taken care of his customers. (Contrast that with Wally Tools.) I'm not trying to sell anything. I have no connection with MintLP other than to be a very happy customer. There is quite a number of vinyl enthusiast, most of whom are miles ahead of me in experience and hearing acuity, who were just as skeptical as you and Siniy123 about what could be achieved with this protractor. I was as well. Almost to a person, those who have tried using this protractor have been very surprised and very happy with what they were able to coax out.

As to anti-skate, that is a whole 'nuther conversation. I'll make it short to say that I, and many others, stopped using test records to set AS a long time ago. I use a couple of o-rings that weigh just a few tenths of a gram to adjust AS on my Triplanar. The total AS weight I use is just under a gram. If I could get away with no AS, and I can on about 80% of my 2000+ LPs, I would never use it. Nothing squashes dynamics more than AS. I do something very similar with VTF.

Rtollert/All,
This where of course where you sort of leave me in the dust, math is not my forte. I do understand, note, and agree with the fact that many different forces are all taking place simultaneously on the Stylus-Groove Interface, and all do impart thier sonic qualities.

You are no doubt correct that incorrect anti-skate will impart incorrect geometrical alignments of the Cantilever, and in turn skew the Stylus in the Groove Wall, something that is no doubt highly critical, especially with a radical line contact-micro line Stylus.

But isn't this something that should be dealt with, with anti-skate settings, rather than us end users perhaps trying to compensate by intentionally skewing our zenith angle to achieve optimum settings-results?

About the only contributions I can offer and note in my personal experiences, is that this was one important area which I feel the Mintlp Tractor very easily surpassed the abilities of the TB Tractor.

Before I set out to use my newly recieved Mintlp Tractor, I sat down for a number of minutes, Table in front of me, and checked my previous setting with the TB Tractor. All looked well in regards to alighment, both as far as overhang, and zenith angle were concerned. I used the exact same methods of using Yip's lighted magnifier, and his "Lupe" as he calls it. (Loupe)

From what I could determine from the TB Tractor, I had a perfect alignment. The Cantilever (at rest at least) was perfectly aligned, with Stylus precisely touching down within both Null Grid's little reference square.

Then I swapped out, and began with the Mintlp. Firstly, I immediately noted that my Stylus was not properly tracing the Mintlp Arc, being slightly short at arc beginning at edge of platter, and slightly long at inside travel of Arc. I estimate my errors at both ends of the Arc were +-1.5mm to 2mm.

I at first ignored these errors to then go to both Null Grids, and see what degree of errors there were with the Mintlp. The errors were slight, perhaps less than +-1mm, but they were unquestionably there. The Cantilever was as well skewed slightly crooked at Both Null Grid Lines.

The reasons I conclude for these differences, was one, that the resolution detail of the Mintlp being much finer, finally allowed me to correctly see for the first time these not before seen errors, two, the design principals of the sight line LP Tractor is a shortcoming, thus allowing a somewhat vague interpretation of accurately sighting the exact precise center of the Tonearm Pivot, even using Doug Deacon's smart suggestion of enhancing the accuracy of this tractor with a piece of fine thread to aid in pointing the Tractor.

And perhaps lastly, and this is a possibility, and one that entered my mind, how great of a degree is/was the quality control of the TB Tractor, to insure correct, exacting placement of the Sight line, the positioning of the two Null Grids, and last but not least, where the Hole was drilled for the Spindle, as any slight error for the hole placement would completely skew the hoped for accuracy?

Of course, the same concerns would hold true with any similar Protractor, that extreme measures were taken to insure a perfectly accurate geometric tool.

With all that being said, (whew!) Wouldn't then an inaccuracy with achieving both highly accurate Overhang, and Zenith Angle only compound-worsen the errors you previosuly mention? I would assume so.
Mark

Interesting thread. I don't want to get into the main dispute. Just want to ask the OP to consider a protractor that is exactly like the MintLp except for these 2 differences: (1) the maker will provide you a unit tailor made to your table/arm based on effective length of arm, and he will scribe up to 4 alignment arcs on the finished product, for 4 different geometries. You can have him include Stevenson AND Baerwald (as well as Loegren or any other) and then you can compare the geometries yourself and choose your preference. (2) He sells it for $50 (+$5 shipping), so it's exactly 1/2 the cost of the MintLp unit.

I have no affiliation at all; I'm just a satisfied customer.

Oh, did I mention that he will usually mail you a pdf file with the arcs worked out, so you can print it to see if it works for you. If he has the data already, which in the case of the SL1200 I would be sure he does, he emails it to you for free! If you like it, you can purchase a more permanent one. No sales pressure whatsoever if you just keep the paper copy. After doing my alignments a few months ago with the paper version, and having sonic improvement in both Stevenson and Baerwald arrangements, compared to other Stevenson and Baerwald protractors I'd downloaded or purchased, I decided to put my money where my mouth is and bought a permanent one last week. It's a great, simple to use, product.

Its only downside is its main upside -- it's tailor made for a specific table/tonearm, so if you change tables it's not likely to be of any further use to you.

If you're interested, look up "kwillis" at audioasylum.

Good luck.

After reading this thread I am going to purchase the Mint for my Kab M5g/Goldring 1042- the value is obvious considering the posts of others whose judgement I value.
Thanks again guys