To begin with, I'm very glad to see some dissenting responses, or any response at all from some of those who may have looked at the thread before but not participated at first. (For those of you who haven't begun any threads of your own lately, our Audiogon is now most excellently providing its thread-heads with a running total of number of views, and we're talking 130 here so far, quite a revelation! - although that's dwarfed by the over 400 that my day-younger audio-oriented post has got.) I'm sure it's obvious to all that I wrote my post in such a way as try to engender some kind of response, be it in agreement or not. Picking The Flaming Lips as the topic not only declares what's on my heavy-rotation list these days, but it's also a way to start myself discussing a little more music and a little less audio-stuff around here, without attracting the typical boring 'audiophile-music' and AOR enthusiasts. (My apologies to the maybe 95% of you who might read this without responding [as I now realize], for whom that is exactly the reason why you stay out - it's cool, we'll still talk about gear some other time, just not female vocalists, radio dinosaurs, and soundtracks to bad movies, OK? Strictly classical and/or jazz lovers, please see the manager on your way out for a full refund with my compliments, though I can't imagine any have made it this far. :-) All the rest, feel free to pile on anytime.
All right, I'll address the less difficult stuff first:
Justin, I was using Pearl Jam as somewhat of a stand-in for all the post-Nirvana 'grunge' bands (such as Creed) who to this day seem to be able to sell a jazillion records based on nothing but conformity to an ethos of warmed-over 70's-ish sludge put underneath preposterously Fat Albert-pitched vocals and then call it 'alternative'. (BTW, Nirvana in truth bear almost no stylistic relation themselves to this unfortunate curse.) Although this lumbering crapola has lately been augmented by 'rap-rock' ripoffs such as Korn and Limp Bizkit and a flock of adenoidally-challenged 'punk-pop' wannabe's apparently inspired by the ghosts of The Ramones and The Buzzcocks (but not getting it at all) via the hapless Green Day, 'grunge' still manages to pack 'em in at the arenas among the tattoos'n'piercings kiddie set. For all their limitations (and I'm not a huge fan), Nirvana and prior Seattle bands like Mudhoney basically did actually approach rock from a punk perspective, whereas Pearl Jam were intent on going exactly where they got from the beginning, being consumately calculated and not revolutionaries at all, their dust-up with Ticketmaster notwithstanding.
As for Sonic Youth, I was a huge fan back before they became frozen in their tracks artistically (not that they can't still do some decent work), but didn't bring them (or the other bands I mentioned in that sentence) up in order to criticize their music, but to illustrate the difficulty that some great 'indie' bands who were given a chance to play in the majors - even with relative artistic freedom - had in making much of an impression on the wider audience, or in effectively moving their own artistic efforts foward beyond the point of signing up. The Lips seem not to be afflicted with this problem, instead taking the build-it-up-slowly approach that always seems to work out better in the long run - but that you almost never see in the industry any more - and still doing it completely on their own terms. Although they haven't gotten there yet, I think they have a much greater chance than the other remaining bands of their generation to break through sales-wise to listeners who may not know anything about the 80's underground, and though there will never be another Nirvana, neither will there be that kind of collateral damage if they can sort of just 'seep in' with some real quality work around the edges of radio or MTV, without ever flaming into, and then stumbling out of, the arenas in the fashion a band such as Cracker did. It may not be much, but the industry has their hand so far up the ass of most of the 'talent' these days (even compared to 10 years ago), that I'll take whatever little fortuitous scrap of unplanned and unplannable subversion I can get - and if it happens to The Lips, it couldn't be to a more deserving band.
About The Smithereens, Phasecorrect - you're right, they don't really have a place in this particular conversation. I would agree about the good singles band idea, but I've seen them live at least twice, heard (even owned) a few of their LP's, and ultimately think that for all their good influences, talent and erstwhile persistence, at the end of the day they were basically faking it on some fundamental level, winding up bitter about not becoming the next Cars or something. Give me The Lyres, The Fleshtones, or The Young Fresh Fellows any day over them in the back-to-the-60's dept., and I guess I never saw where Cobain rhapsodized over them (though some of the guys in the band did do a wonderful job backing up Sal Valentino and Ron Meagher at a Beau Brummels reunion gig I attended in NYC a few years ago).
OK, Ben (and Phase): I can sympathize. I have worried some myself about whether I will wake up one morning, only to find that in the cold light of day, all The Lips' output starting with "Zaireeka" would suddenly come clear as being too top-heavy and full of frippery to support its own conceits. I mean, I'm a guy that prefers The Who before "Tommy". Believe me, you could not have picked a more repulsive example in my eyes than the Mr. Roboto cut-down, yet I have to admit that the comparision is fairly drawn. So what's the difference? Well, The Flaming Lips aren't completely worthless idiots, for one thing. So their record isn't actually about robots or the fate of the world or some such nonsense, it's about people and lives and death and love, though there certainly is that science-fiction B-movie contextual aspect to some of it. The melodies and harmonies won't make you start pulling out your hair while you run screaming from the room either. And you must remember, The Lips are actually in possession of a sense of humor, and a pretty well-developed one at that, something that might be more evident in live performance. But if you've never heard them very much before, particularly their output from "Clouds Taste Metallic" backwards, then you could certainly be forgiven for not realizing that they are a punky rock & roll band at heart, in the sense of being equally influenced by The Velvet Underground as they are The Kinks (both of whom always maintained the pop side within their punk or the punk side within their pop), and despite all their sonic nods to Lep Zep or Pink Floyd, or how many friends in dressed in animal suits and trying to dance goofy they can fit on stage with the band. They do have grander designs these days, but I think it's important to distinguish a band trying to be 'artsy' from a band making art.
But the main thing that I think it would be a shame not to catch onto with just a passing glance is the fact that Wayne Coyne, while not the 'best' singer in the world (neither was Bob Dylan or Lou Reed of course), is a genuis songwriter with a very unique 'voice', both literally and figuratively. Literally, in the sense that despite his limited instrument, he still manages to evoke certain emotional resonances in a way that almost only he can, and figuratively, in that The Lips' music, even though it can be a bit derivative here and there (and what great music isn't?), doesn't sound like anyone else could have made it, either in construction or execution. I personally vacilate somewhat about whether the bands' new heavily sythesized and studio-treated sound more or less obscures or augments his songwriting as opposed to their earlier guitar feedback and drum battery mastery. I am a guitarist, and tend to reject 'artificial' sounds, yet enjoy it and give credit where it is due when someone comes along like a Bernie Worrell or an Eno, who can actually say something worthwhile in a new and personal voice by using a synthetic instrument. At first I was pretty indifferent at best to the sound of "Yoshimi...", and still find some of it to be distracting in spots (something that happens from time to time with the old guitar noise sound too) and edging toward the glossily tech-ish in others, but these guys have always been sound rangers a la Wire, Bowie, or The Beatles, and repeated and careful listening has shown both the effectiveness and the complexity of their creations. Even so, I don't think that I could take a steady diet of this sound forever, but there are always the older records, and I suspect that the band can be counted upon to change once again. But right now, they are doing what they are doing remarkably well, especially on the strongest cuts, which tells me that a great deal of thought and feeling went into this material's conception and realization. The results may require a little time to grow on a person, but they really can be quite affecting and challenging if you let them. (Audiophile note: a good sound system can help a lot here, as YBTPR is too complex and subtle to be truly felt over a boom box, computer, in-store headphone station, or most car systems.)
The comparisions I make to some of the all-time great artists are not meant to put The Lips on a level with them (I don't believe that any rock artists from this time foward will ever be worthy of that again), but I think it's always valid to draw useful parallels concerning influences, or things brought to the mind of the listener. One such thing I was trying to communicate, is just how impressed I am that an artist today could even make me feel as though they were striving, in their own way, to reach such an unattainable level of excellence. Most don't, you know. Most 'artists' content themselves with mere genre work at best, or just the projection of a marketable image. Very few ever break through, or even try, to find some way of communicating that doesn't rely on well-known and accepted signifiers and mannerisms to get over. Even many great artists work safely within preestablished paradigms, and although such work can be very enjoyable, it is rarely life-changing. But then again, most don't need to create their own version of the chair (to paraphrase John Lennon), because they are not creative geniuses, and don't have a personal artistic vision which demands it. I think those of us who are sensitive to it, instantly recognize even a small glimpse of such a quality, and eagerly pursue music that shows us some of it. I think that Wayne Coyne (in collaboration with his bandmates, if that is to be believed) has shown quite a bit of this quality for some time now.
I think that seeing this is what has made Lips fans, as Phild noted at the top, unusually ardent fans (though the band does seem to have left Phasecorrect behind now). Are they (the band and their fans) idiosyncratic or 'quirky'? I don't know. Obviously some of the others posting to this thread seem to know where I am coming from. I don't think The Lips are any longer guilty of trying to be inaccessible, though some listeners will want that. I think they are trying to be fairly universal. Like The Beatles, Bob Marley, or The Beach Boys, and remarkably few others (especially today), what The Flaming Lips are doing is essentially all about Love - not how cool they are (they're so not-cool, that they are) or how bad they are, or how sexy they are (they aren't those things either). Tell you what Ben, no guarantees of course that you will change your mind, and I totally respect that, but I will make you the same offer I made Sean, if you might be interested in going a little further than you have already before declaring yourself done. Who knows? Maybe you'll wind up convincing me that I'm really out of my tree instead, but if you 'get' Screamin' Jay Hawkins, Bo Diddley, Link Wray, Phil Spector, James Brown, Captain Beefheart, Roky Erickson, Jimi Hendrix, Jonathan Richman, Marc Bolan, Arthur Lee, Alex Chilton, or any other artists (like the ones mentioned up above) that just give you that sense of 'having to do their own thing' (even if on a scale that can't be considered grand but is nevertheless valuable), then I'm guessing you still might being brought 'round on The Lips, at least to some degree or with some of their stuff, if you just give 'em a good chance.
And lastly, an admission: I haven't checked out Wilco, mainly because I had little use for the whole 'No Depression' 'Alt-Country' thing, but also because I don't trust a lot of the critics who're raving about them, 3/4's of whom consider Bruce Springsteen to still be a great songwriter. Anybody care to take a stab at setting me straight?
