@pieper1973
Are you in the US? Sonic Craft is your friend. They stock MRA-12s in all the values used in the CS2.4 although you do have to mix and match the old Mills (brown body) with the newer Vishay-Mills (black body). Fast shipping, fair pricing, and excellent service. IIRC, I paid for the mid-grade level matching and they gave me the full set measured at better than the top-grade level matching.
If you are really stuck, the only thing comparable, from my extensive research, is the Ohmite. Wilson uses Caddock but I could never figure out anything that would be suitable in the CS2.4. If you have really deep pockets, you might try Path or Dueland graphite resistors. People say they are the best. They better be at those prices - 5-8 times the Mills! At that’s if you can get the correct resistance in a single resistor. You have to get really creative running in series/parallel to get the proper values. Other than Mills, those are your choices. Otherwise, just keep the OEM resistors.
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Nice tweak, @tomthiel Curious to hear the back story on how you discovered that.
@pieper1973 you have CS2.4, right? Why do you want 12 ohms?
Also, I forgot to mention one of the Mundorf lines is comparable to Mills . . . It’s a re-badged Ohmite.
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@thieliste my CS2.4 “Renaissance” are nearly 6 feet from the front wall. This yields the best sonics as I have the listening position near the back wall (with a large opening to the next room behind my head). I like the sound best with zero toe in. |
@thieliste yes, I am likely missing out on bass reinforcement but with a tradeoff of optimized imaging. My system is in the living room, so am constrained to keep it usable as such. I do get some energy down to the 30 Hz rating and it drops off steeply from there and did my CS1.6 at 50 Hz. With the 1.6s I played around more with placements closer to the front wall but it didn’t appreciably help bass impact while clearly hurting imaging. Lots of tradeoffs in this hobby and few “best” solutions.
But I remain *super* happy with my Ayre + Thiel system and do not foresee any further upgrades. |
@tomthiel thanks for the information. Heat management was definitely on your radar when I did my build. You’ll recall an early solution that we abandoned. But it sounds like you continued to work things out. I hope you can share this with the world sooner than later (products or “how to” manuals).
@pieper1973 when I upgraded the sandcasts on my OEM boards (sourced from FST), I bought all Mills in identical values. But when I did the full rebuild, Tom had me parallel 60.4 ohm Mills for the 30 ohm position - more surface area for cooling that big resistor. The downside is it costs twice as much. But there is a sonic benefit to running in parallel, at least for bigger resistors.
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I see MRA-12 12 Ohm on Sonic Craft and Parts Connexion websites
???
If *I* was going to spend $25 per resistor, I would get Path and put them only on the coax feeds. I recall looking into this and some of the values are not available in single resistors. And it gets super complicated, with the available Path values, trying to get the proper values by combining resistors.
It looks like it's not super hard to make your own graphite resistors but it probably takes *many* attempts to get the correct value, especially as a matched pair!
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I imagine Thiel having concentrated on hi fi product refinement rather than the tremendous investments and demands of addressing home theater. Not only would the state of the art have been stretched, but the internal workings of the company would have been more manageable.
I sincerely believe Jim Thiel made some of the best drivers out there. IMO, only more recent and far more expensive offerings from Vandersteen, TAD, and Vivid are appreciably superior. In your alternate universe, a CS7.2 or CS3.7 with SOTA passive parts and, maybe, Wilson-like budget on cabinet materials would have elevated those models from outstanding to cutting edge.
I hope to some day hear the CS5, all the more if it has received your upgrades. IME, the highest quality bass is produced by a sealed box. Eg, the 30 year old Avalon Ascent has the best bass definition I’ve heard. Well, probably matched by the Vandy 7 which also has SOTA bass extension.
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As of a couple years ago, Rob Gillum still had CS2.4 upgrade “kits”. Basically, the Clarity Cap SA coax feed caps plus polished outriggers. Perhaps he also has outriggers for other models?
Of course, anyone wanting to upgrade their 2.4 can now do better than the Clarity SA which dates back to circa 2008. The SA caps have twice been upgraded (CSA is current version) and Tom Thiel hinted that an even better version is on tap. Of course, you probably won’t be able to get the full 14 and 28 uF in single caps (which is highly desirable over the 13+1 and 27+1 found even in Lexington-sourced boards). |
I have an email from Rob Gillum dated March 2018. At that time, he still had CS2.4 outriggers. I have no idea if they’re available today or if he has outriggers for other models. You might call him if you want to know. |
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@theaudiotweak
Did you already order from Zoro? If not, maybe we should split an order of F11 from The Felt Company. |
@theaudiotweak
Thanks for the offer. I want black or charcoal as I will not be using the grilles after installing the felt. So, I will keep looking elsewhere.
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@jcatral14 I hope you can audition the Sophia before committing. I’ve not heard the Sophia but I have heard W/P 7, W/P 8, Sasha, and Maxx. I’ve also not heard the 3.6 but have owned the 1.6 and 2.4 plus heard 3.7 and 7.2. IMO, Wilsons are good but not worth the price. They do have heroic cabinets, probably their biggest strength and one reason for the price. They also seem to have quality passive parts but I’m not a fan of their driver choices. One thing I’ve heard on Wilsons that I’ve not heard on anything else is a profound sense of the hall space on live recordings. That’s a really cool trick . . . but probably an artifact of the midbass bump.
For about the same price, I would rather have killer electronics mated to Thiels than modest electronics mated to Wilsons. But you won’t know until you can hear the Sophias.
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I prefer the sonics of my 2.4s with the outrigger/spikes. But I am uncertain how much of the difference is because of the extra 2-3” height versus coupling to the floor (rug over tile/slab). |
@jafant No, I’ve not played with fuse upgrades. I read an account of improved sonics by doing this with an Ayre product. Most everything makes at least some difference in sonics. I asked Ayre about this and decided the potential upside was not worth the money and effort. But let me know the results if you try this.
When I upgraded the 2.4s, there were a few changes that made relatively small improvements. These included the Multicap bypasses on the coax feeds and higher voltage caps as woofer shunts. But I heard the improvements and was already ready committed to the expense and effort.
At some point, IMO, you have to stop being a neurotic audiophile and just enjoy the music. That is where I am. And it’s easy being in this place as I know it would take $$$ to notably improve the sound I’m getting now. |
Keep in mind @unsound listens very loudly, peaks at 105 dB. Most Thiels are certainly going to need a boatload of power 2-4 ohms to reach that level. If I had that listening preference, I would pick different speakers.
If you listen to Thiels at more typical levels, it opens up many options. IMO, test results of steady state signals are , at best, a guide. It’s fair, I think, to look at the measurements and conclude a 10 W SET is a poor match for the CS5. But there is a wide middle-ground where you might let your ear be your guide. Here are the measurements for my amp which @unsound has informed me is a poor match for the CS2.4 despite, apparently, never having listened to the combo:
https://www.hifinews.com/content/ayre-ax-5-twenty-integrated-amplifier-lab-report
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The “dynamic power” tests are sine-waves (or square-waves), not random. These are much closer to, you know, actual music than steady state signals. I wish Stereophile had kept that in their bag.
>>>doesn't drop below 4 Ohm
Excuse me?
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Ah, we were talking about different things. Internet conversations can be challenging.
Believe me, I’ll never accuse you of under powering your Thiels. And I am certain I’m not under powering mine regardless of any measurements you share. I get the proof everyday :)
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@improvedsound Wow, that outboard cabinet is really impressive! The attention to detail off the charts.
I see you put aluminum cooling fins on the bigger resistors. Tom had me try a similar cooling mechanism in my build. But it seemed to produce an echoey anomaly. Subtle on many tracks but I heard the best sound without the aluminum heat sinks. One of the advantages of an outboard XO is you can just vent the cabinet, no need for heat sinks. Simply add holes to the bottom and, maybe, top of the rear panel. When I was considering outboard, I imagined the top of the cabinet would just be stainless steel mesh.
I see coils on left side of coax and woofer have the same orientation, almost stacked. I suspect those are close enough to cause interference. Here are a couple of resources for your consideration:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1439851-inductor-placement
Finally, the binding posts look like Thiel gold over brass (or equivalent). There are better choices out there, and it appears you have the budget. I used Cardas rhodium over silver.
Please hear those as friendly suggestions, not criticisms. You have done a lot of hard work!
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@improvedsound your revised inductor layout looks much better. Nice work. |
1: Hang the crossover on the outside/back of the cabinet
Interesting! That would have been useful when I was making all those comparisons. But I would still need binding posts for my Cardas spades. Oh, well, I ended my journey in a great place 🤗
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Re: Wilson Audio, IMO, their cabinets are some of the best out there although I’m not a fan of the drivers. I’ve heard MAXX, W/P 7 and 8, and Sasha. One thing they maybe do better than any any other I’ve heard is create a sense of hall space on live recordings. It’s cool to listen to but it might be a coloration from the Wilson midbass hump?
They are good speakers, IMO, but you can do as well or better for less money elsewhere. I would choose my modded 2.4s (or 7.2 or 3.7) over the Wilsons I’ve heard.
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Can confirm that Cardas Audio has a pair of 3.7 although I don’t know if that’s the main speaker in their listening room. The person I spoke with was interested in my upgrade project and wants to be alerted to any upgrades that become available for the 3.7.
Cardas hookup wire and binding posts were my final changes (and, perhaps, most extravagant expense). It was the icing on the cake, kinda snapped the sonic picture into a cohesive and clear soundscape.
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I used Cardas “chassis wire”. These are Litz stranded and ends *must* be tinned in a solder pot. Cardas can do this but they charge something like $5 per end - ouch! So, I bought a cheap solder pot. My entire project used Cardas solder (which is leaded, I did all soldering outdoors or in my greenhouse). Woofer input is Cardas 15 ga + 17.5 ga (effective 14 ga), output to woofer is 15 ga. Coax input is Cardas15 ga, output to coax is 17.5 ga.
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@jafant That Ayre uses Cardas wire so extensively is a clue that they source their copper from domestic sources, certainly not China. Charles Hansen was a huge fan of Cardas. And he posted at audioasylum regarding his experiences visiting speaker and electronic manufacturers in China. I think that informed his resolve to source as much as possible from domestic suppliers.
To my ears, the Cardas hookup wire was a really nice improvement over the OEM wire in my 2.4 upgrade.
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Those 2.4s look to be in great shape, that’s a great price. But they also very likely have the FST-sourced crossovers. Would be good candidates for @tomthiel mods (Clarity caps, Mills MRA resistors, etc.).
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It’s super useful to know that unsound demands peaks of around 105 dB (think table saw volume). If you want to play many Thiel models that loudly, yes, you do need a moonrocket amp. You can also get there by using something like JBLs rather than Thiel.
My Ayre AX-5 Twenty, paired with my particular digital source, will begin to clip at an indicated 40 on the volume with typical digital files. My speakers are CS2.4, heavily modified under the guidance of Tom Thiel. I don’t have a good SPL meter but estimate the volume at clipping would be 95-97 dB. I mostly listen at an indicated 20-24, maybe low 30s if I have the house to myself and want to play loudly (peaks probably around 90).
If you have several days to read through this thread you will see many reports of happy Thiel owners using all kinds of amps that unsound would consider unfit. Off the top of my head, a couple of CS2.4 owners report great results with ARC tube amps. Wes Phillips glowing review of the CS2.4 included use with multiple amps, some of them quite low-powered and probably none of them meeting unsound’s criteria. When I first heard a pair of CS2.4 they were driven by an Ayre AX-7 (60 W into 8 Ohms). Sounded excellent to me. And I drove a pair of CS1.6 with an Ayre AX-7 for many years, never detected clipping.
The need for a super high-powered amp will depend on many factors including personal listening preference and room size. But the measurements should only be a guide. You will never, ever know what a combo sounds like until you actually listen to it.
Here are the measurements for the AX-5 Twenty. Looking at these, I would not be afraid to mate an AX-5 even to a pair of CS-5s. Obviously, that amp will not get anywhere near 105 dB but I suspect it would sound excellent within its volume limitations.
https://www.hifinews.com/content/ayre-ax-5-twenty-integrated-amplifier-lab-report
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105 dB peaks (and quite a bit louder as well) are not all that uncommon during live performances (and I think that’s what we’re trying to replicate here).
I often bring earplugs to shows that I think will be loud. Makes my ears actually hurt and my great preference is to relax into the beauty and flow of music. Musical communication, for me, doesn’t happen at high volume. I find there is a sweet spot of volume wherein I’m fully immersed in the music.
@jafant By “stock”, do you mean the original version? There are reports of people swapping fuses but I’m otherwise unaware of non-stock Ayre gear.
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2024 is bringing some tangible fruition
@tomthiel Best wishes for 2024. I hope you are able to bring your sonic advances to a larger audience this year. I will testify to the notably improved sound quality via passive parts upgrades under your guidance. Curious to know more about your wire advances. You might recall I was really pleased with the Cardas hookup wire and binding posts on my build. But it sounds like you have something you like even more!
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Tom suggested tring a bypass capacitor on the 1uf bypass capacitors on the tweeter and the mid speakers , I found a pair of .01uf Cardas capacitors and installed them on the tweeter I can highly recommend this "upgrade" . I only did the tweeter because I think these were the last 2 capacitors for sale since Cardas stopped making their golden ratio caps a while back (bummer) .
I’ve occasionally thought about trying something like that or, maybe, Path resistors in the coax feed. But I also remember buttoning up the binding post panel after I added dual Cardas binding posts as the culmination to about 3 months of upgrading everything except the drivers and cabinets. That was no small effort. Meanwhile, I remain really happy with my system. Recently heard $80k speakers connected to similar price point electronics and I’m not missing much. In some ways, I actually prefer my rig. Thanks again to Tom Thiel for coaching me during the upgrade! Happy 2025
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@jafant Haven’t changed anything in years. Still running Ayre QB-9 Twenty and Kenwood 500 plus Ayre PX-5 into an Ayre AX-5 Twenty feeding the heavily modded CS2.4. I still love the sound and haven’t heard anything at this price point (and well beyond) I would trade for.
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@tomthiel Glad to know you’re still working on the upgrades and making them more cost effective. I never bothered to total my parts cost other than I know it was well above $1000 even with some of the discounts you were able to provide on some items. But it was money well spent. I’m unaware of any speaker less than $10k that can touch these. I think I would need to go to at least a Vandy Quatro ($15k last I looked) to be this happy.
I have zero regrets and was happy to replace the entirety of my crossovers for reasons you are aware of. Plus, I now have only film caps and should not need to ever re-cap the boards :)
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@jafant yes, still running Cardas Golden Reference which have been out of production for years now. Bi-wired! That was my final step along with upgrading to Cardas CPB binding posts. That really snapped everything into a beautiful focus, icing on the cake of many fruitful upgrades. OTOH, I also have a Cardas Golden powercord to my amp, and that might be the least cost effective tweak I’ve done.
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Total resistance of my new boards was within 0.1 Ohm of the OEM. This was not some haphazard replacement of parts. Nearly all of the design and parts choices, including board layout, were made by @tomthiel. My only contributions, other than the labor, were choice of resistors (which Tom cosigned) and hookup wire and binding posts (use of Cardas was my decision more than Tom’s). To my ears, any modifications to the “voicing” was well worth it :)
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@thieliste I replaced the OEM hookup wire in my CS2.4 SE with Cardas. In the same step, I replaced the OEM binding posts with Cardas PBP and made it biwireable (ie, runs of speaker cables from the amp to binding posts connected to each of the coax and woofer boards). So, I cannot ascribe the overall effect to any of those three changes. But I will say that I had a BIG smile on my face when I hit play on Roon :)
Really curious to learn more about what Tom Thiel has brewing . . .
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@tomthiel Reading your post reminded me that I *did* compare with and without biwiring (via that Cardas jumper plate I later sent you). I preferred the sound of the biwire configuration but, yes, it was the binding posts and/or Cardas hookup wire that made the biggest sonic difference.
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