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Thinking of moving from AVR to pre/pro and amp

Disclaimer: I don't know what I don't know. I do not have any major complaints with my current system which I will detail later, but I do know it doesn't sound as close to "live" performances as I'd like. Having read many threads, I believe that moving to separates will help in this area, but I may not have the best reading comprehension. I need your expertise.

My system is used 90/10 TV or DVD/Music, so that's another issue. However, when we play music we tend to really play music. We had the Wadia ipod transport running 12 hours/day over the time between Christmas and New Years, so there are long stretches of listening opportunties. I ran a great number of CDs through my Oppo 95 during this stretch too. Last year I only ran CDs as I didn't have the Wadia (I use Apple Lossless files in the ipod).

There is no option to have a separate music only room or second system no matter how much I'd like to. I have spousal asthetic and ease of use issues to contend with so therefore, whatever I buy must be black and work with my Harmony 1000 touch screen remote.

My upgrade budget is miniscule, <$2k. Used equipment is fine. No HDMI switching is fine as I already am dealing with that now.

My current system is a Rotel RSX 1056 receiver, Oppo 95 running analog 5.1 to the Rotel for audio and video via HDMI to the Sony Bravia XBR IV LCD TV. DirecTV DVR runs digital audio to the Rotel and video via HDMI to the Sony. Oppo 95 plays the CDs through the 5.1 analog cables, though in stereo mode. I use a Wadia transport to run analog into the CD input of the Rotel.

Speakers are B&W LCR6 S2's up front and B&W in ceiling surrounds out back. Two Velodyne SPL10 subs handle the lower frequencies (iirc, I cross over at 100 hz).

I currently can locally get a consignment sale 1-owner Arcam AVP700/P1000 setup for what seems to be a reasonable price ($1350 firm), or I could get a new Emotiva setup with their pre/pro and the 200wpc 5-channel amp for my <$2k budget (albeit not the newest pre/pro with balanced outputs as it isn't out yet and it would stretch the budget too far anyway).

The Arcam P1000 has an advantage in that I can use the extra 2 channels for my patio speakers and sell my ancient SAE 50wpc amp as there seems to be a demand for these on ebay (or there used to be). Not a deal maker, but a plus. Emotiva stuff comes with a warranty and a 30 day trial period, which could be a huge plus. Buying black end plates for the Emotiva is a minus, but not a deal breaker.

I like the warm sound of the B&W/Rotel combo, but it lacks *something* that I can not put words to. I'm hoping moving to more power and a better processor will open this up a bit. For instance, on my current system solo piano music sounds nice, but I just do not *feel* it like I do when someone plays a nice piano live. Same with vocals, they are just not there for me through this system. Norah Jones 'come away with me' is a bit thinner sounding than I'd like is an example that comes to mind.

Damn the new performing arts center and its excellent acoustics! I used to be more ok with the sound that I have. However, after a season seeing a bunch of live shows including performers like Botti and also The Tenors, I find it wanting (sub-note/humble brag: if you saw the Tenors lead with your heart PBS special over the holidays, you saw my wife and I in the crowd shots more than once). I also listen to Rush, Steely Dan, and even (please don't laugh) Jim Brickman. Eclectic tastes.

My room probably does not help at all with 12' ceilings, big open spaces, tile floors with one 12x12 area rug and leather furniture. Additional room treatments outside of possibly an area rug under the dining room table at the far end of the room are unlikely. See wife comment above.

Is it worth dropping money on either the Arcam or Emotiva setup?

Speaker changes are unlikely unless they would match the width of the LCR 6's for the front L&R. Center channel space is limited by the HDTV stand.

The Emotiva would allow me to run HDMI and clean up my cable runs a bit, though I do like the processing the OPPO does (over my last Blu Ray player).

Maybe I should just pay for better seats at the performing arts center?

Thanks for reading all this and I appreciate your help.
admranger
admranger OP
144 posts
 
So I have had some time to digest the differences with the speakers up on the VTI (unfilled) stands and the subwoofers in two different configurations. I now have the crossover for the sub and front speakers at 80hz.

So far I like what I'm hearing and there is a bit more presence to the music. I believe that the soundstage placement is better, though still not as deep or open as I'd like. I'll have to see what else I can do without some $$ investment in an integrated amp or larger front speakers. Would bi-amping the fronts do any good (i.e., buy a 6 or 7 channel amp to bi-amp the front three speakers? My receiver has pre-outs so this is technically possible. Maybe just a good integrated amp to handle the front 2 is a better idea (as has been suggested).

Moving the subs was a good idea too as the low frequencies are less directional now. In configuration one, I moved the subs to the right off the media nook riser. I stacked them in order to get more of a point source. Bass was larger and stronger, but I didn't like the look or the preciseness of the bass. Configuration two left the bottom sub where it was and moved the top sub to the far left (off the media nook riser) and at a 90 degree angle to the right hand sub. The bass level descreased, but the preciseness improved. Maybe the level was more 'boominess' than anything else? Is having the subs at a 90 degree firing angle from each other a bad idea? I can turn the left one to face forward instead of across the room (haven't tried that yet -- ran out of time this weekend).

Thanks again for the help!
soix
10,252 posts
 
Good to hear you've noticed some improvements in trying different speaker positions and subwoofer settings. Sounds like you've also started to identify the difference between more bass and better bass in the process. If possible, try pulling the front L/R speakers out another two feet or so and place the subs just inside each speaker stand (you obviously don't need to leave them there, but it could prove very instructive). If u can do this u might get a good boost in depth and perceived transparency as room boundaries are more removed from muddying up the sound. If this really helps you know where a lot of your problem lies. If not, I think ur wasting ur time with bi-amping, etc. and it's time to start auditioning some new (or used) speakers to get you what you are looking for. This does not necessarily mean larger or even more expensive speakers, but rather some that provide better imaging and some more oomph in the lower mids and upper bass to provide some of the image density you seem to be lacking now.

Sounds like floorstanders could be problematic if the tweeters would be higher than ear level. Probably better to stick with monitors. Hope this helps.
internetmin
258 posts
 
Soix has given you some good advice here. Biamping with your speakers and your setup will give you no audible benefit. In fact, you'd be better off spending that money to have a pro come and setup and tune your system. The allure of new equipment can be incredibly tempting; however, in your situation, don't listen to thing like cable upgrades or exotic tweaks. From what you've consistently described, I think you have a speaker setup issue. Until you get that really nailed down, you'll be wasting a lot of money and never happy.

To your point about imaging, did you use the laser or the string method I previously mentioned? It still sounds to me like your speakers are not in proper alignment with each other and with your listening position.
imhififan's avatar
imhififan
2,227 posts
 
Admranger,
switch the internal x-over to direct on the back of your subs (You already set the crossover in your player & avr).
admranger OP
144 posts
 
Imhififan: I have set the crossover switch on the subs to direct. However, at the very start of all this it was not set to direct so your point is well taken.

Soix: I will try the speaker and sub placement issues you described.

Internetmin: I did use laser alignment, trying two different "sweet spot" locations. One at my position on the couch and then a different setup with the sweet spot about 6-8 feet behind the center of the couch.

I liked the less direct sweet spot (i.e., the second one) a bit better, but I don't remember why (I did it a couple of weeks ago -- things are starting to blur -- I need to write this stuff down!).

I'll keep trying these tweaks and see which helps.

Thanks again everyone!
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