@frogman I understand your point, however I think most people are missing or not reading my original post. They see measurements and immediately assume, this is pro-measurement versus anti-measurement. Nothing could be further from the point of this post. My question is straightforward, do audiophiles who pay attention to everything, measurements, and what they hear, as well as considering products like cables, isolation for mechanical vibration, expensive digital to analog converter‘s, lots of things for which we hear a difference, but for which there is not strong correlation to measurement, do such audiophiles get better sound than those who only pay attention to measurements, and disregard everything else? That’s the point of this conversation.
True or False?
The following is a common sentiment from some who claim to be audiophiles.
If you hear something but can’t measure it, you only think you heard a difference.
This notion is also common among people who claim to possess an accomplished understanding of audio, especially when achieving a high level of performance for a minimal investment.
So who’s right? On the one hand we have Objectivists who claim if you can’t measure it, you can’t possibly hear it or if you do, its expectation bias and self delusion. Are these people correct? Do they get as good as a sound, or better for far less money by ignoring cables, power cords, mechanical isolation, basically any accessory that many have found to dramatically improve performance despite a lack measurements? Do those who dismiss expensive digital to analog converters as being no better than rather common digital components with decent measurements get just as high a performance level as those of us with MSB and DCS? Do people who claim it’s all about finding perfect speaker placement, do these people outperform those of us with systems that cost multiples more than what they pay (Who also pay close attention to speaker placement as well as everything else)? Or do those of us who pay attention to cables— digital, analog, and power, what we set our components on top of, how we place our speakers, acoustics, and tweaks, expensive DACs and the like, do we get better sound? Who’s right? And how do we ultimately determine sound quality?
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@noske *G* I didn't 'see' it as a 'political' stance or statement, fortunately...;) The 'liberal arts' seem to connotate pot-smokers that wine and discuss art issues and whether or not there's a connection to the disruption of basic human response to blah blah ad nauseum.....whereas conservativism is an abalone that can't be pried off the rock of the industrial/defense establishment with anything short of a crowbar.....which is what one needs to do so in reality, but one still has to surprise the little mollusk to do so.....and that sort of thing....🤨🤪 Meanwhile, I'm on the highway wondering if the guy on his cell in the Beemer is really aware I'm next to him @ 73 in a 55....;) I don't, and won't, hold against Anyone that dropped more on his/her cart on the tonearm then what I've spent on my entire 'system', although the qualities and response of same we can 'discuss' into the next decade....and still not come to an agreement as to it's relevance vs. SOTA... I'm DIY'ing Walsh speakers....I don't expect Perfection beyond my own hopes and expectations.... The fact that they 'play' at all is a hit; that they respond reasonably well per the analysis means I've got to apply is better yet...*s* ...to my ears, and the grey gook between them. For the time being, that's a cheap form of nirvana, and not just the group. *G* For this mortal, that's 'what it's about'....Please Yourself First, defend if you must. Things 'audio, and the pursuits of' are so highly personal that the discussion of such is fraught with preference to one's own reference that unless one can experience the other's situation IRL... @jonwolfpell ...or one is trying to measure that which is not able to be quantifiable....? Exotic cables measured by means N/A to the average person but to the not so average 'phile, speaker cable 'lifts' I can 'spoof' with 2x4 'drops'...which I may or not be able to discern under my circumstances either... The esoterica gets a bit much to comprehend....where does the rabbit hole end, if at all.... |
@ted-denny, regarding your question as framed above, audio reproduction is so complex that it makes sense to consider as many variables as possible. Personally, I draw the line at stuff for which I can see no scientific rationale - and which consequently can't be measurably quantified. Things for which there is an imperfect correlation between measurement and perception, I have no issue with at all. After all, measurements can only be as accurate as the inherent level of accuracy of the measuring device. |
Than do you ignore power cords, digital cables, isolation platforms and the like? If so, you can’t possibly have a high-performance stereo by modern standards. Modern high-performance audio take cables and other factors that affect sound into account, and this is the main reason why we have a significant increase in fidelity over the past 20 years. |
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