Ive been plowing though the posts here and thought this seems like a place I could find some more help.
Anyway, I listen to rock about 80% of the time. Anything from very heavy metal to 80s rock. Some blues, some softer rock, and Pink Floyd, I dont mind jazz or big band or female vocalists, but im off point....mostly rock. My room is about 12X22.
Im upgrading a very mainstream set of components that ive just sort of lived with for years: Yamaha CDC 905 Changer JVC 518VBK AV Reciever Kenwood JL-680 3-Way, 12"main, 92db, 70w, Circa 1989 Speakers
Going to a hi-fi shop of any kind is just not realistic on a regular basis(very remote) so im leaning heavily on the forums and reviews online to gauge a direction.
So far ive tried a Cambridge Azur 340A and now currently demoing a 540A (both along with a set of AudioQuest ICs). Honestly the ICs made a huge leap with my original setup..I was impressed. Anyway, the CA amps are very musical, more imaged and more detailed. However my initial impression is these are not rock amps. Negatives are the guitars are now more "in the back" so to speak, more harshness/treble/brightness, and also a more general laid back sense, almost like the corners of big rock and roll hits are rounded off if that makes sense.
Am I on track that these amps arent rock amps? Or is it possible the speakers are now more exposed for their faults? Ditto the CD player?
To take this further, I feel whats most associated with "rock" or "heavy metal" are punch, power, volume and bass. I agree....to a point. Ill take killer midrange over heavy bass, and what good are punch, power and volume without feel, subtleties and tone?
As a side note, ive been playing guitar for 20+ years, when talking guitar amps, IMO there is nothing to discuss, tube is FAR superior to SS. I particularly like EL84 juiced amps, smooth, warm amd sweet. Is there a correlation with tube audio?
I dont want to start the "what to upgrade first" debate, ive read all the many many opinions....:) Im open to speakers or source, but right now looking at amps(with my system im thinking just pick one and get started...bad idea?)
I know some feel SS is the way to go for a rock amp, but currently im assuming based on my experiences so far and guitar tastes im going to like tube amps. I certainly could be wrong.
I like the talk about the Manley Stingray. Ive read everything every search engine will find about it and talked to Manley as well as some dealers. Any opinions on it for my wants/need? What about the Prologue 2 or the Jolidas? Are then in the same ball park as the Stingray or are we talking a step down?
For speakers ive looked at and considering(based on $$) the Athena F2.2s, Paradigm Espirits, and most others in this price range, but also found some Dali Towers that are slightly more(may get a chance to hear them in a couple of weeks). Based on my future plans/$/listening habits, any recommendations?
I hope tihs is semi-clear, I appreciate any thoughts, Thanks!
You admiration for the EL84 tube gives you another option--the Decware Zen amps that utilize this tube (or can use this tube). I have a Decware SE84CS amp mated with Altec Lansing Valencia speakers. While this amp is only 1.8 watts/channel, with the Valenicas and right source, it's a no brainer for me. Doesn't matter the musical genre, it sounds fantastic. In addition, one can use get into tube rolling. I find that NOS Mullards throughout sound best to me.
Obviously, the key here is the match between amp and speakers. Investigate the Decware site and forum: www.decware.com.
Jax2, Boa2 and Undertow have all been around this block, and they know what they're talking about.
I thought yours was a good point as well Grant. If I were to point to any tube amps for Rock I'd think about a KT88 amp in Push/Pull or Pentode. The ones that do rock best would be the ones that use a bunch of tubes and huge transformers, and would seem to be beyond the budget of the poster though. I had a Mesa Baron that gave great rock. I don't think the amps you're considering will have the same prowess and speed, not to say they are not good amps...it's just the 'rock' thing.... A Jolida 502B might be a contender, as well as the Prologues, but I still think the same money can get better boogie from an SS solution. I haven't heard the Manley Stingray, but can't imagine the EL84 tube in pentode giving the authority of a KT88, though the EL84 would likely excell in speed. If the percentage of rock were lower I'd say go for the tubes too, but if rock's your bag SS is where I'd point. Howard's hybrid suggestion is another good option. The Unico Unison is a great little amp in that regard too.
Tube amps are great for rock, you do need to match them with your speakers of choice. High powered tube amps cost a lot of money...choose your speakers wisely and you'll be a very happy camper.
I'm using Rogue Audio tubed monos...great amps for rock as long as you don't choose speakers that need more power than the Rogues can muster...no rocket science at all.
If your going to use large floorstanders with big woofers you'll need a tube amp with a good transformer/power supply regardless of speaker efficiency.
If your going to use a sub (or subs)...you can fudge a little if your carefull.
When I was looking for tubed monos I looked at... Rogue Audio, Quicksilver Audio, and Aronov labs....all around 120 watts a side and all monoblock.... which is what (I NEEDED) for my system.
I have a couple of big solid state amps...I prefer the tube amps in every way.
Another option just came to mind. If you can find a used Audio Aero Prima Hybrid amp, it will run about $600. We drove 90dB and 93dB speakers with its 40W to ear-bleeding levels, and anything from Van Morrison to Pantera sounded phenomenal. Truly one of the most enjoyable amps I've ever heard.
Go tubes. The "sounds almost like tubes" only works for folks who are unfamiliar with the sound of tubes. Since you are familiar with the sound of tubes, youll soon be disappointed with anything other than he real thing.
The EL34 is a great tube, but you can consider a KT88 or 6550-based amp also. As far as Jolida and other less expensive amps go, I have owned a number of ASLs. With minor mods they perform as good or better than most name brand amps. They are super easy to mod, but if you soldering iron shy a number of can do tweaks for a reasonable price.
The only caveat is that you need to consider your choice of speaker carefully. Tube amps work best when run against speaker with benign impedance curves.
I can tell you that i found a like new pair ( church benefit ) of Klipsch KG4 loudspeakers.These things can boogy with the best of them .Not sure what the Market value is but If I were you I wouldn't rule out any on the Klipsch speakers mentioned....They drive easy and sound smooth.The bass is incredible considering the modest size...
I too would stick with SS. You're talking hard rock & metal on a serious budget. Heritage Klipsch with an older McIntosh amp will get you a lot farther than those on your list of considerations.
However, for the money you're talking, you are going to be hard pressed to better your current setup by turning over the entire system in one move. FWIW, I think you'd be better off addressing one component at a time. Start with the CD player.
Sorry I did not see any price point given, and he was considering manley, so that told me in the used market that it was gonna be into the at least low thousands, around 2000.00 or so.. My mistake if stingrays and all that are far cheaper, By the way I owned the above speakers, and other klipsch they match well with the mcintosh, actually about as perfect a combo you can get, I am sure most will agree with this.
I agree with staying solid state, however you can get very close to tube sound.. Depending on budget, I Am into the EXACT same type listening you are, I would Seriously consider a Big Mcintosh Blue meter intergrated, find one local to audition, very sweet sounding with tube type hi's, and Big bottom end fuzz and punch to really balance out heavy recordings to sound consistent, even thinned out 80's hair band stuff.. They cost however, your up in the 3 grand range nearly with a used mc 6500 or more for a mc 6900, Both have tone controls too, which will help in the type of recordings you wish to have perform well. I have owned Cary Tubes, Rogue audio Tubes, Counterpoint Hybrids They all can do well, but truly Mcintosh solid state in the last 5 years of models is definatley the way to go. It will work well with most speakers too, much more universal sounding equipment that is not super picky on you speaker selections, yeah its still important, but you have a lot of options that will work this way.
IMO you'll get more bang for the buck swapping out your front-end (CD Player), and or speakers first (there is currently a thread on this subject with associated hot debates (which I won't revisit)here. That said, if you are listening to 80% rock I'd stick with SS myself. I don't think tube amps at that price point are going to be able to match the speed and dynamics that an SS amp will offer. I'd agree with you regarding tubes and guitar amps, but the logic doesn't cross over. I prefer tube amps for most of the music I listen to, but my listening includes about 5% rock. For SS amps I'd highly reccommend auditioning a Portal Panache if you can live without a remote. Joe Abrams offers a 60-day in home trial period, and sells demo units on A'gon frequently for around $1250. No bells and whistles, but a damn fine amplifier that will make all kinds of music sound wonderful in a room the size of yours. Speakers? For rock...rather than something new, I would look for a pair of older Klipsch Heresy or Klipsch Forte II's or Chorus II's (the latter are pretty large). Not the prettiest speakers, but boy oh boy can they rock your house with crystal clear, full range reproduction. Dynamic as all get-out. I saw a pair of Forte II's go for $450 here recently which is an outright bargain for what you'd be getting. If you insist on new and pretty speakers, I really don't know much about the ones you mention, but I could reccommend monitors by Silverline, Soliloquy, and Dali.
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