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Turntables New vs Used

Thought I would post this as possible food for thought. Have been in this hobby since 1957 and have owned a great many tables both new and used. My first audiophile table was a Dual 1019 and it has evolved from there.

I deal a lot in turntables both new and used, sort of a hobby business. With that in mind in recent years there has been several new tables to hit the market such as those from Music Hall,Project, and so on. Not all but most of the tables in the sub $1,000.00 range are just horrid to say the least. For what one pays in this category,one can find true stellar turntables in the used market.

Used tables from Sota,VPI and Rega will clearly outperform anything from Music Hall, Project and others.

This is not meant to disparage Music Hall or Project or others of the same category. But when one truly looks into what is available in the used market,it becomes readily apparent that the higher end used tables will sonically be superior to the new offerings.

I know for the last few months have had several of the Music Hall and Project tables as well as others come and go through the door.

To be candid there is no black art or voodoo science in turntable design. Physics and Geometry are basic law and are absolute with debate not being possible.

But many of these new tables have seem to have forgotton these basic laws and some of the new tables are pure dreck and I am being kind there.

Turntables from VPI,Sota,Rega,Nottingham,Bluenote,Clearaudio,JA Michell,and Simon Yorke offer tables that firmly place them among the best in the world,with sound engineering principles.

Plus the upgrade path is clearly there for future sonic improvements as materials and science come about.

In addition the price one will pay for one of the used tables make these some of the best bargains for today and tomorrow. However with all things used do make sure of whom you get it from and that you are getting what you pay for.

Don't overlook many of the excellent direct drive used tables from Denon,Kenwood,Yamaha,Technics and others. But do concentrate on thier upper end models forgoing the lower model line up.

All in all the current used market represents far greater value than most of the mass produced new tables.

For instance a Rega P3 is in my opinion is vastly superior to a Music Hall MMF 7 and at less cost, new price to new price. I know I have had both here in recent months. Used the Rega P 3 is a hands down winner in this category.

Both VPI and Sota are easily accessed via phone or e Mail and are most helpful in their product line.

The choice is yours and it is your money.
ferrari
drumsuck
10 posts
 
Ferrari... dude... this is a discussion forum. You don't get to take offense to somebody disagreeing with you.

Audiophilia like any other hobby is all about opinion and personal choices.

Chill out.
david12
1,454 posts
 
Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater, Johnanntais makes some telling points. In particular, I agree that budget items are important to draw new enthusiasts into the hobby, whilst we old foggies shuffle off to Gods waiting room. I would'nt agree there are less items available, TT's excepted more new names are coming available, particularly from China. You may have issues in trying to support home industry, but the budget market is expanding with good new products, in ampifiers, CD players, speakers etc. I accept there seem to be no new TT manufacturers, but give the Chinese time. Meanwhile there are reasonable budget decks around. I would still advocate a newcomer to vinyl to go 2nd hand, if only because you reduce loss if you make a mistake and wish to sell quickly.
Moving on to the laws of physics, I am a Doctor not a physicist, but last time I checked the basic laws of physics are immutable, certainly the laws of motion, friction, dynamics etc. I don't think TT designers need to employ String Theory. What you might say is that there are many different ways of applying those laws, high mass/low mass, suspended/rigid etc, but sorry, the laws of physics are pretty much a given.
dan_ed
2,451 posts
 
David12, I think you meant to say "Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a physicist!"

It is interesting that you mention string theory and at the same time claim the the basic laws of physics are immutable. For it is the string problem that defies explanation using the currently known "laws" of physics. I think it is important to remember that physics is itself an attempt by man to model the universe in mathematical terms. Surely we don't presume to get everything right every time? I say this not in light of the discussion here about TT design, but more due to how often I hear "the laws of physics" tossed out in these forums. As an engineer I use many of these laws everyday but I can easily recognize things around us that are not fully explained, yet.
musicdoc
320 posts
 
i love this thread! to go even further in left field, have any of you seen the movie "what the *bleep* do we know?" a very accessible melding of the "big questions" of quantum physics and metaphysics.
johnnantais
621 posts
 
Just to be precise, I didn't write that I didn't agree with the statement laws of physics are immutable, though that's a whole other debate. Given we accept the statement, how does this translate into record player design being entirely without art? My point in the long list of different approaches was that no one agrees on how to achieve perfect music reproduction, that none in fact do achieve perfect music reproduction (which is why so many follow many different paths and stand by so many different designs), that different recipes achieve different levels of success, and that this proves that in fact we are still quite ignorant of the mysteries of record-player design. Given this fact, then record player design is indeed an art. Even with all the laws of physics at our command, we still cannot fabricate a violin to match a Stradivarius. So I re-iterate: the statement "Physics and Geometry are basic law and are absolute with debate not being possible" is meaningless in this context, however true it might be (or not be, the point is moot regardless).
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