Upgrade Denon 103 R to Shelter 501 II?

Springbok 10, I have a Nottingham Spacedeck with the Shelter 501 and use the Eastern Electric phono stage and it is a wonderfull combination. I have heard great things about the Denon but not at the 800-1200 level. I did listen to the Sumiko Blackbird and it didn't seem as rich to me, a little thin compared to the Shelter, but I did like it better than my Dynavector and would have been very happy with it until I heard the Shelter. That was with a Rhea phono stage and two identical VPI scouts through the same system. I think that the Shelter/EE is a wonderfull combo. Also, I would highly recommend Vintage tube service for NOS tubes for the EE, boy was that a treat.

Peter wrote:

"Wow - makes me wonder if something was wrong with my Denon!"

I doubt it, but was the low-compliance Denon well-matched with your Nottingham arm? I have no idea - I'm not familiar with the specs on your arm. In addition, what phonostage are you using? The Denons benefit from the best.

Artemus wrote:

"If the Denon is really that good, why do't they raise the price to an appropriate level? Do ya think that Denon has no one with ears that can hear its superior quality, or marketers to sell it? I'm skeptical. Yeah there are giant killers out there. Maybe the 103 is one. But giant killers have limits. This one seems limitless according to all the hype. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. I was going to, but it has been oversold to the point where I'm now too skeptical."

You're talking about a cartridge introduced over 40 years ago - and I don't think it was particularly cheap when it came out. The R&D has been amortized to the point where it's nonexistent. Furthermore, unlike almost all other MCs, Denons are made by machine - they have been making them long enough, and in such quantities (hundreds sold last year, I gather from a dealer here in NYC who does not, btw, carry them), that they have developed tooling and reliability that no other current MC-maker has. Almost all competing MCs are made by hand.

Take the number of years they've been making them, the fact that they can make them by machine rather than by hand, and finally that Denon is a big corporation that makes its margin elsewhere in mass-market DVD players and the like, and this adds up to a low price. Beware hype at all costs, I agree, but trying out a Denon is hardly a huge financial risk. And your resale value will be pretty close to what you paid if you live in the US. Count your blessings.

The only problem with the low price is that people constantly underestimate the value of the partnering equipment. The Denon wants a high-mass, heavy-duty arm with high-quality bearings to drive its stiff, short cantilever and comparatively high weight. Such tonearms do not come cheap - you're talking Ikeda, Ortofon, FR, old-style SME (with steel knife-edge bearings) etc. And it's a pretty LOMC - i.e. your phonostage and/or step-ups have to be pretty low-noise and high quality. Just because the cart is $250 (for the 103R) doesn't mean you can afford to spend less on arm/table or phonostage in this instance.

I went from a Denon 103R to a Denon 103D and then a Benz Micro L2 and finally a Shelter 501 II. I sold them all and went back to the 103D. The Shelter really reminded me of the Denon. I wouldn't say its a great difference let alone improvement over the Denon.

I have to add this though... I've recently retired the Denon (I'll never sell it) and have started buying old Audio Technica MM carts from the late 70's and early 80's and I'm very much enjoying the sound of these cartridges as well. In fact, I'd stack my AT155LC from 1981 against the Shelter 501 MkII any day. (And the AT was $80.)

My TT is a VPI HW-19 MK III and my Tonearm is a RB300 with new cardas wire and a drop counterweight. My phono pre is the Acoustech PH-1.

I think that Patricka hit it on the head. The Denon D 103 versions etc have been around forever and are thus cheap by comparison but the equipment to use it correctly is not. The Denon DL103 needs a quality heavy arm with good bearings. I don't know that unipivot designs will cut it... What does the manufacturer recommend for that deck/arm? They should have listened to many combos and have some thoughts.

I've used a 103R since April and couldn't be more pleased. Reports on the quality of this cartridge are all over the place, although most of what your hear about the 103 and 103R is positive. Mixed reviews seem to abound, however, with the Rega arms with some users having good luck and others none at all. From all the reading I've done, it seems to me that the 250 is a poor match with the 103 and 103R while many users may be happy (or unhappy as it may be) with the 300.

For what it's worth, I use my 103R with a Premiere FT3, a fairly low budget medium mass arm. The FT3 does have damping capability though, and that damping capability makes a substantial difference in the performance of the Denon. A poster at the Vinyl Asylum recently pointed out to me that in reading that he had done it recommended that the Denon's be used in either a high mass arm or a medium mass arm with damping capability. So for those out there with medium mass plus damping, the Denons could be your ticket. I've also found that about 4.5 to 5 grams of blue tak on top of my headshell made a subtle but definitely audible improvement with the 103R. My FT3 is on an older Michell Gyrodec and I'm using a decidedly low budget phono stage (about $200 retail), but the 103R easily and grossly surpasses the Ortofon MC 20 Super I replaced, which was a) a much more expensive cartridge and b) supposedly a much better match in terms of compliance with my tonearm.

So experimentation may be in order for you. At $250 the 103R is a pretty cheap experiment that, as one poster above pointed out, you can probably recover most of your money on if it doesn't work out. And if it does work out, you will probably be very happy. When I bought my table used many years ago, it came with a Koetsu Black which I used for a number of years. I can buy 6 or 7 103R's for one Koetsu Black and, although my system may not have been as good (and it's still pretty middle of the road or even low budget compared to most Audiogoners) in those days, I can tell you that is what I intend to do. I feel absolutely no need to buy anything other than a 103R. In my modest system, it does a lot of things right.