Upgrade from TW Acustic Raven AC-3 to what?

I have heard the raven one, raven AC 3 and the black knight. All I can say they are great turntables. But the difference between them is minimal. I think only if you have a dedicated audio room that has been treated profesionally. And you have the best phono pre, amp, cables, power supply etc etc, only then will you hear what the top turntables are capable of.

By best I don't really mean most expensive but I mean a really balanced setup.

Throwing money at audio isn't a garantee for a good sound.

The Raven one or now is my dream turntable.

Hi Elinor, tonearm is 10" davinci grandezza mated to a grandezza reference cartridge. Phono stage is Goldmund Ph3 set at 475ohm. Platform under the TT is a 35lb TAOC SCB platform. Linestage is a Vitus SL101. Amps are Karan 1200 monoblocks. Spkrs are Avalon Isis. ICs are Vitus Andromeda. Spkr cables are Crystal Ultra.
Alec

Dear Mordante,
this "Throwing money at audio isn't a garantee for a good sound" is the single most important sentence in this and most other threads regarding analog audio.
Hardly anyone will like, even fewer will follow it, but it tells the truth and nothing else.
Dear Alectiong, go follow Solong's advise. He did follow some of my advises and I can confirm from direct first hand experience that his Raven does sound different (in a most positive way...) from all other Raven set-ups I know or have seen.
The Raven - as ANY other TT - does benefit from isolating from periphery vibration.
It's essential to isolate ANY TT out there (any which doesn't already feature a below 3 hz or better isolation in its design...) on a Vibraplane, Minus-K or similar.
Otherwise 90% of the money spent on the particular TT were wasted.
The full potential is only shown/heard/experienced when the TT is isolated from building frequency.
A - sad and somehow frustrating - technical and physical fact on thsi planet.
Ask any scientist who works with a microscope then and now - they will all tell you the same story.
The periphery conditions of an analog TT are identical.
Have a nice audio journey,
D.

I'd like to throw my 2 cents into this conversation. I own the Raven one that I have tweaked out quite a bit. And based on what it sounded like from when i first got it (which was very good) to where it is now is a rather large improvement.

I think the idea of abandoning this table at this point is a bit premature.
First I would try the above suggestions regarding replacing the rubber belt as an experiment, since it is almost free. The mylar Doug Deacon discovered and posted about is a great place to start, and I posted some info in that thread about an easier to use etching creme to remove the silver.

I replaced my standard feet (obviously you have stillpoints) with a Sistrum Sp-1 brass stand. You'd have to get a larger one for the the AC-, and possibly raise the motors up on something. This was a large improvement in speed and definition, and 1 point I added even drains vibration from the underside of the metal bearing.

Then I added a Halcyonics platform underneath the SP-1, which clarified so much of the spectrum I didn't realize was being colored by vibration. The Sp-1 acts a vibration synch into the Halcyonics, which Isolates it from the outside world. Once you hear active vibration cancellation, (at least in my building/setup, it's hard to go back.

I have since added a copper plater top (which the AC already has) and a TTweights peripheral ring and weight.

And the last thing I would suggest is trying the fantastic Strain Gauge cartridge system (which I sell- disclaimer). It gives so much resolution, and seems to provide great synergy with the TW sound. There is so much detail and information being thrown at you, sometimes I have to swap out to a less extreme stylus contour, to purposely gloss over some of the details in poor (or worn) pressings or recordings.

I also think it's interesting that Mordante has heard all of the TW tables, and feels they are close in performance. Sometimes I wish I had gone for the Raven AC, but after reading this comment, I feel my choice of going with the Raven One and using the savings to add the very best peripherals I could was a wise choice, and makes me feel confident that my analog setup doesn't need to change (meaning I can focus on other areas of the system). Best of luck.

Dear Alec: +++++ " although i wish it wasn't as dark sounding, that the soundstage could be more spacious and the bass tighter. " +++++

IMHO all those audio areas where you are not satisfied with means that ( between other things ) you have a not a wrong TT but a wrong analog rig set up where ( mainly ) the bass performance is not on target and this fact is more detectable due that your speakers goes really down on the bass frequency range: IMHO if this foundation frequency range is not on target then " nothing " can be.

I agree with Elinor and other persons that the Raven is not on the dark side and that the very first step with this TT ( and any others. ) is that the Raven seats in a platform that can dissipate very fast its vibrations ( inside/out ) otherwise this affect primary on the bass response that gives a " dark " sound, I write inside/out because the Isis puts high pressure on the room bass performance and it is a factor to take in count.

You have to find the right turntable mat for your TT system. The turntable mat is IMHO the most important link on a turntable performance other than the bearing/motor.
It is in the turntable mat where the LP seats and its relationsship ( vibrations/feedback/cartridge stylus tracking and stylus feedback/etc ) it is so crucial that is the one that in first step puts a " signature " in the quality performance. I have to say that if you decide for the record periferic ring or TT/platter clamp these IMHO have to be additional link and independent of that critical TT/platter mat.

Other factor to take in count additional of what I post here and to what other people posted is the arm board build material where different arm boards with different build material makes that the " signature sound " change.

Other thing that I make if I was you is to hear the system ( with out any other change ) with a different cartridge ( maybe with two-three cartridges. ).

I know is not easy with such big speakers but suppose that the analog rig is right on target ( what is your today set up ) then I would like to " play " a little with the speakers/room interaction on the bass frequency range.

The other audio link that you can check is that today you are using two different brands on phono stage and line stage where you have two different signature sound on each unit and maybe here ( independent that both units are very good ones. ) you can improve.
If you can try ( borrow somewhere. ) a integrated active high gain Phonolinepreamp, not separate phono and line stage: I understand you can do it with the Vitus through an additional phono board.

Alec, it is not easy for any one of us to give you the precise answer with out hear your audio system but I'm sure that all of us are trying to help you before you spend 50K+ to achieve what?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.