Upgrade path from Wilson WattPuppy 7s? - seeking advice

Cstooner, i am sure a lot of people feel you are a commercial for Vandersteens.  We sell many great brands including Legacy, as well as the Personas, we also sell PSB, Dali and many others. 

Cstooner, you have never been to our shop and have not heard our Persona setup so you do not know if you would prefer our setup to yours.

What you failed to understand is that Paradigms room correction fixes bass issues only it does not compensate for poorly matched systems nor does it fix any issues with the upper octaves. The Personas use room correction to fix bass boom or bloat which is what happens with room positioning or room sizes which are not ideal. 

The Persona room correction affects bass only, so for example if you still have an echo box for a room, or poorly matched components, or bright cable etc they are not going to magically compensate for any of those issues.  Only Legacy which uses a full range room correction system will have any hope of fixing or ameliorating any of those issues.

We are also not saying that we are the only ones that can make the Personas sound good, they are incredibly transparent and are therefore much more sensitive to what you use with them. 

This is the same issue with any suitable high resolution speaker system but is compounded with a system which uses Beryillium drivers for both the midrange and tweeter, the Persona's don't hold anything back which is both good and bad. 

If you look at both the Tone review and the Absolute Sound review of the Personas both reviewers obviously had great components. 

I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that their are Persona dealers who do not have good matching components, or the right rooms, what might have worked with one brand of loudspeakers may or may not work ideally with another and unless you sell multiple lines of gear you may or may not be able to create a musically satisfying results. 

So the issue is go with easier more forgiving speakers which there are tons or properly setup a superior high resolution set of speakers which enable you to hear everything and spend the time and money to find the right matching gear.

Cstooner if you want to hear one of the most remarkably life like systems on the East Coast, just give us a call, you may end up being very surprised at what you will experience. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Troy:
You produce more words than an online dictionary. As for your claim to have sold more WP than anyone associated with the brand, I can't wait to hear where and when. Was it when you were a lowly salesperson for Sound By Singer who me and many of my friends avoided because you always and still do talk too much to the point where we just wanted you to leave so we could make up our own minds about what was "the best ever" and what was just average. (Usually what you said was the best ever wasn't even close)  By the way, why did Andy lose the Wilson account?--
  Yes Yes We know you are blown away by Beryllium drivers (you once told me Ushers were better than Wilsons at 1/2 the price)--so I guess you really do love Beryllium--and people who go to Audio Doctor and buy them may as well. Good for you and them. But let's let the market for high end audio be our guide. We'll see where audiophiles who can afford speakers up to 60k and go out listening put there $. The Personas, despite their marketing and alleged superior technology will maintain a small share of that market. Wilson, Focal, Magico, B&W and others in the Persona range and above will continue to outsell Personas--and that's not because most audiophiles are either foolish or uninformed.
As we've discussed many times, I currently own Wilson but I am by no means a "fanboy" (Is that high school or college slang?) I've owned Focal, B&W,JBL,Quad, Reference 3As and others.  I have no skin in the Wilson game other than I think they make extraordinarily good loudspeakers in their respective price ranges as do more than a handful of other manufacturers.
And I really don't care if others agree with me. But when you and Troy go on your long Persona promotional tours here on Audiogon, you get me going--especially when you compare them to Sashas, Alexias (or as you once did-- Marten's 100k+ speakers) in which case IMHO they fall far short in musicality, coherence and dynamic expression.
 Funny--no one else on this or any other forum I'm on bothers me the way you and your sidekick do. Maybe if you two stop with the rank salesmanship. Then again, that would be impossible--like the Scorpion in "The Crying Game" --you can't help it--it's in your nature.

Let me see. Whas has not been mentioned yet?.. Got it ! What you really want is Kharma. Powered by Lamm electronics it is one of a very few dream systems. Focal's better Utopias will be quite good with tubes too.
However, as someone said, and I almost entirely agree with it, you might want to consider different amplification. It may not change your impression but perhaps is worth a try. I think, Wilson recommends ARC and VAC electronics. What if they are right, as unlikely as it may sound ?

Gpgr4blu,

You need to get your facts straight, Andy was the number one salesman for the shop, I was number two, hardly lowly. For most of my tenure at SBS and for the three years I worked at Innovative I had the consistently highest sales numbers, why, because I cared, and I listened and compared components, and lastly I was not afraid to work and often moved components from room to room to assemble a system for my clients that sounded magical, when too many other sales people would just play what systems were setup.

As per brands I promoted as the best Vac, Cat, Conrad Johnson, Wilson, Focal I guess these are also lowly brands?

As per you and your friends avoiding me perhaps you preferred Andy’s deft touch? Andy was all about finding the most expensive gear imaginable and if there was another setup for 1/3 the price that was 90% as good, i am willing to bet you Andy would be running the other way.

I think you actually agreed with me that I found that at the time the Bel Canto Universal player with a Shunyata cable on an HRS or Black Diamond base sounded nearly as good as a $40k DCS stack yet cost less than 1/4 the price.

Andy lost Wilson when Dave Wilson was paranoid about Eggleston and Focal being a threat to their sales position and Andy was told choose us or them, Andy to his nature told Wilson that nobody tells him what to do and they then allowed Innovative to sell them in NYC.

As per Usher being 1/2 the price as a Wilson and being as good, I never said that, what I said is that the Usher can compete with speakers that are much more expensive and they do use superior driver technology and cost much less, Kind of similar to what we value in the Personas, advanced technology at a lower cost, Wow I must be a bad person for finding products that consistently perform at a very high level yet actually cost less.

We were the first US dealer to find and promote the Auralic Vega which at $3,500 sounded nearly as good as a $7,000 Meitner MA 1 guess which one we sold more of and which one we told our clients to purchase?

The Ushers Be 10 and 20 were remarkable loudspeakers and sounded amazing for the price. It has taken years for the market to produce a set of speakers which is really better. We stopped selling the line as Usher USA folded and it was not clear who would be representing them, the other issue was their incredible weight the BE 20 weighed 300 lbs.

As per annoying who, if you actually paid attention to many of my comments we are telling people to examine a lot of different products and not just ones that we sell. You are the one who sounds like a broken record.

As per all the brands you mentioned outselling the Persona lets see where the market leads, right now Personas are starting to sell and are consistently getting rave reviews by every reviewer who hears them, and they haven’t even started really promoting the line they only started shipping the product less then a year ago.

It has taken Wilson 43 years to build their reputation as an uber speaker maker, only now has Paradigm released a reference line of speakers so I am willing to bet Paradigm will do it quite a bit faster.

Please stick to your Wilson speakers, and enjoy them. As I said I owned Wilson Watt Puppy 3/2 and 5 and have setup Maxx 3, Wp 7, and many others.

I would purchase a set of Vivid G1 or G2 or a set of Rockports over almost any Wilson product, and the Persona’s are a flat out steal for their sound quality, build quality, advanced room correction and flat out good looks, and they are selling really well by the way!  You may think that I hate Wilson I don't I like their speakers I just find that they are getting way too expensive for what the customer is getting, I would take a pair of Wilson's over the Magicos  as I find the Magico are too sterile sounding for my taste.

As to  the reason I post is to hopefully spread some of the knowledge I  have gained in 30+ years as doing this for a profession. I promote brands to get more people to know about them and hopefully save them money. 

I am constantly learning and I have a friend who runs an audio magazine who is constantly turning me on to the latest tweeks. 

I always knew about T+A but it wasn't until I read the Absolute Sound review where Allan Taffel compared a $18k T+A integrated to $120k worth of CH Precision gear did I want to hear the line. I thought to myself if a $18k amp sounded similar to $120k worth of state of the art electronics that would be something great. 

You would be surprised that most dealers don't think that way. 

I would take a pair of Person 9H over a pair of Wilson Alexia any day, and be rejoicing in my flat bass response, greater efficiency, and superior resolution, and I guess you can purchase a really nice dac or amp or preamp for the $20k less expensive price point, but I guess you have more money then brains so we will leave it like that.

You remind me of many of the know it all customers that would often come to the store, and the sales people would all laugh at them once they left as their lack of knowledge was staggering and they often kept buying new gear over and over again because they didn’t understand synergy.

The reality of this industry is the real magic only happens when you can create a combination of components that really work well together and over the years I have seen and heard way too many systems that just sounded awful, I wonder if yours would be one of them?

You fail to understand that we have a reputation for making fantastic sound and doing it for less money then other dealers because of my testing and always evaluating new and better products.

And get your facts straight we tested the Personas vs a $120k set of Kharmas Grand Exquites and they were lovely just not worth the four times great amount of money for a speaker without the advantages of the Persona and just because a set of speakers or an amp or a dac is really expensive doesn’t make it better. We liked the Kharma DB 9 which were lovely but did not have the advantages of the Personas.

Normally I would end a rant like this with a personal invite to my shop but I wouldn’t want to extend an invitation to someone who is beyond help and professes to know more than a 30 year veteran.

Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ

Folks-

I appreciate all the advice. I have listened to the lower-priced Vandersteen Quatro CT speakers, which I liked a great deal for their musicality, though maybe because the room was not quite right, they did not seem to have the same "separation of instrumental voices" provided by the Wilson WP7's. I call this sound "analytical", but that may be the wrong descriptor.

My rant and my apologies - It seems that all of the audio manufacturers are trying only to capture market share from the wealthy. I grew up listening to custom-made Bozak speakers (from Ed, who was a friend of my fathers) and hung out in New Haven, CT at a now defunct shop called David Dean Smith (high-end audio). Back then (the 1960's), the highest priced audiophile components were still affordable by the middle class.  Now the list price of the Vandersteen MKII speakers is $62K, the Wilson Alexandria XLF is $210K, the Sonus farber Aida is $120K. I have listened to all of these, and they are not worth these prices even if I can afford them. 

The margins must be very large for these audiophile manufacturers. By comparison, my wife and I have owned and raced 15 different Porsches (from $60K for a 1992 911 S2 Turbo, $200K for a 1994 993 GT Evo and $400K for an RSR - more for engine maintenance and race set-up). Porsche makes some of the largest margins among automobile manufacturers, but the experience of driving and racing these cars cannot be experienced in other ways. However, I can listen to Joshua Bell and the NY Philharmonic in person and he sounds better than any recording played on any high-end audiophile sound system. I don't get it.

Back to reality - here is what I have decided to try:
1. An Audio Research tube amp instead of the McIntosh 275;
2. A used or demo Wilson Sabrina, Sasha or Yvette if I can find any of these for sale at a discount - I do not like the sound of the higher-priced Wilson speakers - I find their sound to be too diffuse and melodic;
3. Possible switch to another DAC - MQA or Bluesound is possible, but not likely;
4. I also going to listen to Paradigm speakers, but I am not sure there is a local distributor here in Ann Arbor, MI.

Thank-you all very much - I learned a great deal. Gerry