VPI 3D tonearm

Wc65mustang, Perhaps you should reveal what it is you have against Harry Weisfeld and VPI.
(Kidding, but could not resist.)

I run to the door every day, only to find jewelry, shoes, shirts, books, etc., that my wife bought. The arm is due any minute.........

Stringreen,
Have you got the new arm yet?
Would like to know what you think.

Dear Halcro,
First, thanks for the advice, I am always looking to transcend my shortcomings and sometimes the best observations come from the most curious places. I could have worded my post better, no antagonism was intended.

This quote:

I have zero experience with VPI products or Harry Weisfeld and consequently have no opinion on them one way or the other.

puts your previous posts into proper perspective.

Stringreen, looking forward to hear your comment. It is so much more useful to hear from someone who have actually heard the real thing. As Halcro said, it does not matter how the thing is made, it is the final result that counts and I am eagerly waiting to hear the final result and I definitely will audition it as well when it is available locally.

Well said Halcro.

Generally speaking it's the least experienced posters with the strongest positions.

You'll find them here and in other VPI "appreciation" threads.

You obviously have a underlying resentment towards all things VPI/Harry Weisfeld.

So obvious is my resentment towards "...all things VPI/Harry Weisfeld" that in the thousands of my postings to 288 Threads over a 6 year period prior to this Thread.....there is not a single reference to anything VPI/Harry Weisfeld?

Au contraire mon frere...........I respect and admire the accomplishments of Harry Weisfeld (as I do a number of strong talented individuals (like Bob Graham, George Cardas, Richard Vandersteen, Ivor Tiefenbrun and Roy Gandy) who have created and maintained a high-end brand in a difficult and esoteric market such as audio.

I wouldn't care who it was who prefaced the introduction of an audio item by proclaiming its method of manufacture as the 'raison d'etre' for admiration.
My response would be the same.
Release the product.
Let the reviewers and customers hear and test the product and if it proves to be a revelation......by all means, proudly disclose the possible secrets behind its success?
Do you think anyone would care that the Continuum Cobra and Copperhead tonearms were designed by a group of engineers applying a complete suite of advanced software towards their modelling beginning with Finite Element Analysis using NASTRAN, PATRAN, and DYSTRAN before finalysing in the complex process of Gradient Shape Optimisation using Reshape software if those arms didn't sound superior to the competition?
Or do you you think anyone would care that the Schroeder tonearms are hand-made and drilled and assembled like a Swiss watch by one man in Berlin if they didn't offer a sound that some audiophiles find superior?

I have zero experience with VPI products or Harry Weisfeld and consequently have no opinion on them one way or the other.
This is a discussion Forum in case you hadn't noticed....and for those owners of VPI products with 'thin skins' (such as yourself Zenblaster)...I would recommend avoiding any Threads which threaten to contain offending negative comments and simply stick to a VPI Appreciation Forum?

And whilst you ruminate over my advice Zenblaster.....I'd really work on my comprehension skills so that a posting which in fact is stating that Harry Weisfeld is NOT a fool..........is not taken as "obvious underlying resentment"?

I own an upgraded Classic "2.5" which is essentially the basic Classic plinth with a Classic 3 tonearm and base. My cartridge is a Lyra Delos and SS Zephyr as backup. I realize that my VPI rig is pedestrian compared to those who own the Classic 4 with the 3D arm. Ok, I can live with that.

But here's my 2 cents FWIW. I am as happy as a clam with my Classic 2.5. Mike and Jack have always treated me like a patrician rather than a pedestrian plebe. In fact it was Mike and Jack who set me up with detailed DIY instructions and tools to install the Classic 3 base on my Classic plinth. The install was lickity split easy.

So what the beef? Are there better tables and arms. I suppose. Here's an idea. Why doesn't someone start a thread about the best TT and arm. There's a similar thread currently running about best speakers -- over 1600 posts. I guess one person is a genius and 1599 folks are fools. Forgive me if I decline to post a comment.

Count me in as a VPI fan.

If Continuum HAD in fact developed the first 3D printed tonearms......Harry Weisfeld would look pretty silly making such a 'song and dance' about it 10 years down the track?!

You obviously have a underlying resentment towards all things VPI/Harry Weisfeld. Could you please clarify your past experiences with Harry/VPI so that we can put a proper perspective on your comments. You are a much smarter man than me based on your years of comments here but even I can see through your veiled arguments.

As far as material is concerned, isn't Continuum tonearm using similar type of material? I thought somebody even mentioned in the past that Copperhead arm may actually be the first 3D printing arm or at least used some earlier technology along 3D printing line?

I don't know where you appear to have obtained your 'information' as there have been numerous reviews and articles about the Cobra and Copperhead arms over the last 8 years with not one of them ever mentioning '3D Printing'?

The Cobra and Copperhead armwands are 'Reshape' Shape Optimised, Resonance Tuned Compound Curve Wands from proprietary woven fibre technology pioneered by Continuum Audio Labs.
The wands are unique monocoque construction using advanced fibre and resin technology proprietary to Continuum Audio Labs.

"Woven fibre and resin technology" is currently not able to be utilised in 3D printing.

If Continuum HAD in fact developed the first 3D printed tonearms......Harry Weisfeld would look pretty silly making such a 'song and dance' about it 10 years down the track?!

What I find so interesting is that HP (VPI) is judged so harshly. I don't think anyone has had such success in such a niche market. Success/failure of this arm will be better evaluated in time. With all this interest on these and other audiophile pages, I'm sure everyone will be given a voice.

Anyway, Two things are certain: (1) The early adapters will be ecstatic over this tonearm, and (2) we'll be arguing over why that is.

Much depends on the nature of the joint. An abrupt change in section will have acoustic consequences, either good or bad, whatever the method - 3D printing, welding, gluing or otherwise.

In the case of some 3D printing, lasers are used to fuse the materials which is not much different from welding.

Some glues are stronger than the materials on each side of the joint, some are flexible. Some are solvents which allow the material to dissolve and reform...

I am definitely am interested in this arm. As far as material is concerned, isn't Continuum tonearm using similar type of material? I thought somebody even mentioned in the past that Copperhead arm may actually be the first 3D printing arm or at least used some earlier technology along 3D printing line?

So far, all the account that I heard from people who attended the NY demo was all positive so I am a bit surprise at all the negative comment so far. I guess once the arm becomes available, I am looking forward to hear them at my local dealer and see what happen!

Manitunc

That production point depends on the cost of the tooling or molds required for other processes. However, that tooling or mold is required whether you build 10 or 10 thousand and can be prohibatively expensive to prototype, which is really the purpose of 3d printing,

The point here is that you can perhaps use drawings for existing or modified parts to input into the computer, but there is an equivalent to tooling costs in that the more complex the shape the longer it takes to design the part in order to get the information into the computer.

I am familiar with modelling and prototyping techniques, and the advantage of 3D printing (and laser cutting, and CNC machining generally) is that because nowadays almost all products are designed on computer it is possible to extract from the drawings enough information to quickly see what a product will look like with regard to its external dimensions, but to integrate all the various drawings of all the parts is a bigger task.

Peterayer

there are some complex shapes and sectional changes in the arm tube interior that are not possible to produce by other methods.

That would be the advantage - by incorporating webs, coaxial tubes, and varying wall thickness it would be possible to alter dimensions to increase strength and rigidity without adding to effective mass, while reducing resonance. What it appears is that the original drawings have been tweaked, rather than a new concept considered based on the technology. Which is fair enough, and a reasonable starting point.
J

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Dear Lew,
In welding......the norm is not to use 'foreign' materials but to create a homogeneous 'whole' by melting together identical materials. The strength of these welds can be designed to be identical to (or even stronger than) the two pieces being welded.
However....there is a chance that there are changes at the molecular level of the 'welded joint' which, whilst not affecting strength, performance or visuals......could possibly affect the acoustic properties or integrity of the whole?
With 'gluing'......I admit that there would be an acoustic change at the interface of the adhesive medium.
Points taken :-)

+1 Manitunc

I have no idea if the VPI tonearm is complex or not, or if it sounds good, but I do know that the 3D process allows for much more complex structures than casting or machining would allow. I also know, that after a given production, 3D printing is less economical. That production point depends on the cost of the tooling or molds required for other processes. However, that tooling or mold is required whether you build 10 or 10 thousand and can be prohibatively expensive to prototype, which is really the purpose of 3d printing, not mass production, at least yet. But, when you can tweak a design, and have a working prototype in a day, for little expense relatively, that allows a designer to try various options in something resembling their final form.
I just dont get why anyone would be down on Harry for building and selling turnables and arms when he could just as easily be buying stuff from China or making some other widget for Walmart to sell. Its his money, he takes all the risk, and is entitled to whatever profit he can derive. if you think you can do better, then take your own money, roll the dice and have at it.

The fact of the matter is VPI, despite the hype and numerous upgrades, has never made anything more than an ordinary tonearm. Nice turntables, average tonearms.

Let's not expect anything different this time.

Dear Henry, You obviously have a vast knowledge of esoteric manufacturing processes. Thanks for the input on that subject. However, I would take issue with your last sentence:

"But casting, welding, machining and gluing do." This was written in reference to what makes a one-piece construct. Welding and gluing do NOT make a one-piece construct, by my strict definition. Welding and gluing can fuse two constructs that are separately one piece each. In both techniques there will be an interface even between two items machined from identical materials, where the foreign material in the joint (glue or weld) could act to reflect energy and create spurious resonances. Casting and machining have their limitations, as well. Could you admit that it is remotely possible that there could be some advantage to the use of 3D printing to make a tonearm that is "more" of a single piece than was heretofore achieved (by technologies with which the rest of us are somewhat familiar)?

I have no idea whether the VPI tonearm is good, bad, or indifferent, but the project seems novel and interesting. It's possible that the 3D printing is ground-breaking but that epoxy sucks for a tonearm. We'll find out.

You might better say that introducing a Classic 4 so soon after the Classic 3 is an example of something not so admirable.

I heard a description of this VPI arm at the NYC show in April. Harry explained that there are some complex shapes and sectional changes in the arm tube interior that are not possible to produce by other methods. Apparently this arm tube is very good at controlling/damping vibrations. The lack of joints/seams also was discussed as an advantage.

I don't know how different the VPI 3D is from my SME V-12 arm tube, but the latter is also one piece with a varying cross section, and it is made of magnesium.

I was also told the 3D takes one day to make in the printer.

I hope I am always behind the person or company that puts its own money behind new products and innovations and lets the market determine its success or failure. Where you see cynicism I see the American Dream.

Sweating, brazing, threading parts do not make a one piece tonearm.

But casting, welding, machining and gluing do.

If this VPI 3D tonearm turns out to sound 'wonderful' as some here are eager to conclude........be aware that you could have been listening to EXACTLY the same tonearm, manufactured by 20th century methods 25 years ago!?

The same could be said about every new tonearm and turntable.

Sweating, brazing, threading parts do not make a one piece tonearm.

I still don't see it as anymore cynical than when Corvette went to plastic bodies.

Thanks for the 3d primer, very informative.

I am perfectly happy with my current tonearms and have zero interest in purchasing this one.

When 3d printing became economical enough for home users, I opinied that a tonearm would be a likely first audio use for 3d printing. the shapes and thicknesses are finely controlled, much more so than is available with casting or CNC machining and they could be built in one piece, except for the joint and base. Plus, they could be much more economical, in that a manufacturer didnt have to expend enormous sums on molds and stampers. Rega was able to expense that cost over hundreds of thousands of arms. SME has done so through both high cost and numerous units. But most others are a collection of machined parts, each of which creates a joint, whether bolted or welded. 3D printing at home uses polymers, but the same CAD program can be used on industrial 3D printers using metals.

3d's advantage is that is can be economically used for complex parts made at low volumes and the fact that changes to the design can be easily made without throwing out existing molds and tooling. Also, there is no change in tolerance due to worn tooling. Cartridge bodies are another prime use in the audio field, which Ortofon is already doing

What I find interesting is that it looks more or less the same as the existing arms rather than anything different that might imply a fresh look at the design in the light of a new manufacturing method.
John

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Could you explain why this is a 'cynical exercise in marketing hype'?

I thought I had in my first post above?
But here goes again...........

3D printing is perfect for complex shapes or one-off prototypes for testing or limited production items.
It is extraordinarily useful in the medical field whereby entire internal human organs may be re-created from CT Scans and/or MRIs to allow for EXACT replacement parts to be fabricated for surgical transplant BEFORE the patient is even admitted to the operating theatre.

At present...the range of materials able to be used in 3D printers consist of ABS plastic, PLA, polyamide (nylon), glass filled polyamide, stereolithography materials (epoxy resins), silver, titanium, steel, wax, photopolymers and polycarbonate.
This leaves out a large selection of materials such as copper, brass, bronze, wood, stone, concrete etc but this may change in the future?

The point is.....that the VPI 3D tonearm is NOT complex in any way.....and could have been produced by traditional fabrication methods used for over 100 years.....and in virtually every material available on earth.
In plastic.......this arm could be fabricated in mass quantities using Injection Moulding or Compression Moulding or Vacuum Forming or Blow Moulding or Rotational Moulding or Continuous Extrusion.
The choices for the combination and formulae of the plastic selected using these methods......is vastly greater than for those used for 3D printing and thus testing for the 'acoustic' properties of the selected material would become the important criteria instead of the resultant 'accident'?

Finally....the costs involved in 3D printing of simple multiple identical objects is vastly greater than for those produced by 'mass production'.

If this VPI 3D tonearm turns out to sound 'wonderful' as some here are eager to conclude........be aware that you could have been listening to EXACTLY the same tonearm, manufactured by 20th century methods 25 years ago!?

If that doesn't strike you as 'cynical'.......then join the queue and enjoy :-)

Could VPI be selling these arms faster than they can push the button??

Wow, if all you have to do is push a button and out pops a tonearm, why do you have to wait three more weeks?

Shakey

That one left a mark. You may want to be more genteel in these fora.

Halcro,

Could you explain why this is a 'cynical exercise in marketing hype'?
It appears to be taking advantage of the cutting edge engineering technology that's available.
Unless you know something you haven't disclosed the only thing cynical appears to be your post.

With all due respect,

>>No.....we're saying that 3D printing of a tonearm.....using the resin that is required for a 3D printer (regardless of its suitability or acoustic properties).....is a cynical exercise in marketing hype.<<

Well if that's the worst you can say about the arm, then that's pretty good.

I just got an E-mail from VPI....it will be 3 weeks or so before they can ship my arm.....YUK

Ahoy Captain.... right now, the entire arm is gone, awaiting the 3D. I imagine the tower will be (at least) similar to the 10.5 but for cosmetic changes. The tower works so well, I can't see VPI changing it for something else. The real pain in the neck is the anti-skate. If you use it, the arm tube is not readily changed since the whole arm has to be adjusted again. I haven't been using it on the 10.5i, and Harry is not a proponent of anti-skate, but I would like to have all options available. I understand the anti-skate gizmo is included with the 3D...we'll see.

Stringreen are you using your JWM VTA tower, or is there a new VTA tower that comes with the 3D arm?

Waiting on the review

The only thing I care about is how it sounds. I have been using a 10.5i wired with Valhalla, and I am expecting my new 3D arm wired with Discovery any day. Harry said both wires are excellent, however, he likes the Discovery because in his estimation, it has better mids, though the Valhalla might have a more extended high end (maybe because it is silver??) ....we shall see. I have never felt my 10.5i/Valhalla was amiss in the mids, but I took Harry's advice and asked him to wire the 3D with the Discovery wire. I will post when I get my arm in position. Harry said that most striking about the 3D arm is its lack of resonance....that I will understand when i hear it in my system.

None or nearly none of the companies that market "wires" actually make any of their wires. They buy wire from foundries. After that, it's a matter of solid core vs stranded vs Litz, grounding, shielding, single-ended vs balanced connection, silver vs copper, purity of the metals used, etc, etc. Brand names mean nothing.
So, tell me what is a Discovery wire and what is a Valhalla tonearm wire? The Nordost wires I have personally auditioned in my home system have all made my ears bleed, but I never tried Valhalla. I wired a preamp with Discovery, found it to be "OK", but the earth did not move for me. I like solid core, thin gauge or thin ribbon, silver wire of high purity, insulated with teflon or cloth. Pure copper of the same description is OK too. The idea of using a DC voltage to apply a bias on the shield is interesting to me, but I've never tried it. Beyond choosing one's own preferences from among the long list of alternatives, the boutique audio wire idea is rubbish.

Goertz wire, which may no longer exist, always seemed to me to give the most bang for the buck. But arguing in free space about Valhalla vs Discovery is a waste of energy.

Halcro, you seem to know something about 3D printing. My machinist friend says it is "old news", only new to audio but still at a very expensive stage of development. Seems to me that 3D printing might be a very cost-effective way to generate complex shapes that would otherwise require prohibitively expensive machining to achieve starting from one solid piece of material. It also seems to me possible that epoxy could be an excellent material for making a tonearm. It might also not be any good. You mentioned "welding" as an alternative method to generate complexity, but that would be cheating. In welding you join two different pieces together permanently. At the junction is the weld material that forms an interface of source. That is likely NOT analogous to 3D printing.

Don't care about vitriol but would enjoy a review.

Wc65...then get in that mustang and resume your sleep.

I'm so tired of the VPI shills like Stringeen...

Yawn...

VPI uses Discovery wire in all their other arms. Valhalla is considered an "upgrade". Just because Valhalla wire is expensive doesn't automatically make it better.

Actusreus....it seems so very much irks you. Have you heard the Discovery wire? Once upon a time Harry Pearson said that Nordost Valhalla resides in his state of the art system....no longer. The world moves on.

Anybody tired of VPI tonearm upgrades? This is the worst tonearm series in the high end end audio market constantly being re-invented and/or upgraded. And Stringeen is the worst shill.

Nice tables-lousy tonearms.

Discovery tone arm wire can make a quite significant improvement in my experience. Get some wire, solder on some clips and good RCA connectors, tape it to the tone arm and give it a preliminary listen. Even configured like this it sounds noticeably better than the stock wire on most tone arms that I have tried it on.

Tobes,

Sure. So then how about going with an "improvement" rather than such sweeping statements as "very much better"? It is also plausible that Harry is jumping on the Discovery bandwagon to align his product with the top products in the same category. I don't have a problem with manufacturers seeking to improve their products, but I do have a problem with making dramatic statements such as this. Having been at this for some years now, it irks me to see anyone making such sweeping claims. Something "the best" is now much worse. In high-end where improvements are rather quite incremental at certain levels, it does not inspire confidence and smells of a marketing ploy.

Another point is that considering how much wire the signal has to go through in any given system, a claim that the Discovery wire in the tonearm only will make a sudden leaping improvement in any system is rather absurd, at least to me.

Actusreus, I think it's at least plausible that the Discovery wire could be 'better' sounding in the VPI arm. Without comparing the two, how would you know? One presumes Harry did this comparison before going with the Discovery(?).

FWIW, the Discovery tonearm wire is highly regarded - it is used in both the Triplanar and Durand Talea arms. The designers of those 2 arms are notable for being obsessive over the details of their designs.

Stringreen,

I didn't say Valhalla was the top of line wiring for VPI arms; I said it was Nordost's top of the line wire that retails/retailed for an exorbitant amount of money (for most people), and has been generally considered one of the very best wires the money could buy. So I find your (or VPI's) statement that the Discovery wire, now apparently used for the new VPI tonearm, is "very much better" than the Valhalla wire absurd. Do you and VPI propose to tell me there has been some sort of a ground-breaking break-through and advance in tonearm wires in the past year that rendered all top wires thus far on the market inferior and obsolete? Or is a more plausible explanation that that it is all marketing bs meant to sell more product? I myself have owned several VPI products, including my current Classic turntable which I love it, but this is getting really annoying.

Actureus....you are correct....Valhalla WAS top of the line wiring for VPI arms..however the new Discovery wire that is used in the 3D arm is better...especially in the mids (is what Harry tells me..I'll report on it when I get my arm wired with the new Discovery) VPI will wire any of his arms with any wire you wish.

So it seems that the consensus is that the 3D arm is junk without anyone here having auditioned the new VPI product.

No.....we're saying that 3D printing of a tonearm.....using the resin that is required for a 3D printer (regardless of its suitability or acoustic properties).....is a cynical exercise in marketing hype.