VPI Classic and ZYX 4D

This thread has gone off the rails...

1. As Myles Astor pointed out, fine tuning a cartridge when it has only 20-25 hours on it is a waste of time. Mark was wrong that all ZYX's need 100's of hours to break in (the UNIverse needs only 50 or less to behave normally), but 25 is certainly not enough. Stop fussing and listen to music for 100 hours or so.

2. Stephanoo and some others on this thread are MIS-USING the four anti-bias tracks on the HFN&RR test record. These tracks are not "tests" that must be "passed". If you set a cartridge to "pass" a higher db track than it wants to, you will end up with excessive VTF, excessive anti-skate or both.

This is a common misunderstanding among newbies, because the instructions with that record are poorly written.

These tracks were DESIGNED to make your cartridge mistrack. The only reason there are four tracks of differing amplitudes is that different cartridges track differently.

The idea is to pick the ONE track that BARELY causes YOUR cartridge to mistrack under normal VTF. Then adjust anti-skating until the mistracking is equal in both channels. DO NOT try to eliminate the mistracking and especially DO NOT try to "pass" higher amplitude tracks. That is a mis-use of the record.

Frankly, I find those tracks and the whole HFN&RR record worthless. I've set up 50 cartridges in the last 5 years, on my table and others, without using or needing it. Throw it away. Learn to adjust by listening to music. That's what you bought the cartridge for, that's how you should adjust it.

/rant

Hi,

Instruction on the record are poor, that's is true.
Nevertheless I wouldn't say that this record is worthless.
I find the azimuth's track and the resonance test very interesting indeed.
Moreover, I think, and it's been proven to me by listening tests too, that adjusting the antiskate (minimum adjustments) to be able to track the 12dB brings brings up a lot of sonical improvments.
I can't say the same thing for the 14dB though which I had to back up after a couple of hours of listening.

So my understanding is that the 12dB is required to be able to properly track most of your records.

Beside my cartiridge now might be at 35-38 hrs so it is close to the normal behaviour I assume.

I think the matching with tonearm is important and the resonance tests are created for this purpose.
If I have a resonance test at around 15-16Hz, I assume that this should affect the sound and the tracking abilities somehow, and that is what Mike told me right away.

He told me to check it out because resonance has to be around 9-11Hz and he asked me to contact him back after have done certain tests because the stainless steel armtube might be the solution otherwise.

I will keep you posted.

BTW it is the first time I see this interpretation on these tracks.
Thank you for sharing your understanding.

I will reflect on it

You're welcome, Stephanoo, though of course the proper interpretation of those tracks is not just my opinion. This has been discussed on vinyl forums for many, many years. Search the archives if you like, it's all there.

Reflect: it doesn't make sense to use those tracks as "tests" to be "passed". Real music is not cut at those amplitudes and velocities, so why apply so much VTF and anti-skating to track unrealistic grooves? Logic tells us this will result in excessive forces being applied to your cartridge.

You already verified this. The 4D performs best at ~2g and with minimal A/S, not at ~2.5g and with more A/S. You didn't describe how the music sounded at those higher settings but I can: dull, slow, lifeless, fat, no "snap", no pace, no air. Sturdy but stodgy, like yesterday's coffee. Am I right?

So, FOR THIS CARTRIDGE, tracking the 14db band (or higher) is irrelevant. Of course if you were using a super compliant Shure cartridge, the 16 or 18db band would be relevant and the 12 db band would not. If you must use this record to set antiskating, the only band that matters is the one that causes a tiny amount of mistracking (buzzing).

Of course antiskating and VTF are best set while listening to music. I do it every day, but I admit it takes practice.

I agree the resonance frequency tracks will identify a major arm/cartridge mismatch. That's the most useful thing about this record IME. Your results will be interesting.

For me the other bands have no value (the azimuth test band is bogus) but at least they do no harm. That's not true of those four anti-bias tracks, however. Used incorrectly, as so many do, they dull the music and shorten the life of a cartridge. That's why I spoke up.

Enjoy!
Doug

this totally makes sense to me.
Passing a 14dB track on a certain position of the record cut at a certain speed makes no sense whatsoever.

All in all at 2gr and a little antiskate I can track the 12dB.

the point is though that the next little buzing track would be the 14dB's one.
Now at 2rg I have the left ch left with a little bit of distortion while the left ch has more distortion.
If I were to balance the 2 distortion I would have to increase AS in this case.

Anyways I have contacted VPI and I definitely feel like say how incredible their service is and I strongly reccomand to buy their products for the quality of them and for the customer service.
Anyways I talked to Mie and told him the resonance problem and he told me to send him back cartridge and tonearm and they wull replace it probably with an higher mass (perhaps Stainless steel) orr add weight to it and properly set the system.

They are amazing.
I am going to send the package after 5PM and hopefully next week I will be able to get it back and then I will post the changes.

BTW the sound at 2.3gr and more AS wasn't that horrible, I mean it was still great.
I just thought that there was a little lack of air and I felt like there was less definition and soundstage less defined so I stepped back and that confirmed my impression.

Thank you Dough for sharing with us your kwnoledge.