Classical music listening... what is a better source High Rez or Vinyl?

I think CD / SACD was made for Classical.  Dynamic range, freq response and low noise floor.  The choice seems clear to me.

The main thing is to keep listening.

Cheers

Since you seem able to endure digital, what is the problem? Count yourself lucky. Anyone can push a button. Vinyl takes a lot more effort and skill. If you can stand digital, why bother?

@millercarbon we  can file that one in the  " get off my lawn" box. You need to try alot harder dude.

@rok2id  thanks!

Bottom line the recording quality of the CD or vinyl is the driver if both analog and digital systems are of high quality. My Esoteric CD player can easily beat mediocre vinyl recordings. If everything is perfect vinyl will edge out CD/SACD. I have not spend much on streaming so that comes in consistently last.

Anyone thinks any digital anything sounds better with classical than vinyl is trying to put legs on a snake. https://youtu.be/NelBNtNm8l0?t=3    Notice the kid in the back has his hands up. He knows when he's licked. More sense than the rest.

For me, the recording quality of the source material generally rules the day, not the medium through which it is delivered.  But if I had to make a distinction, LPs might sound more luxurious while streaming & digital might sound more punctilious. 

There is far more repertoire on CD and HD, which to those deeply interested in music is often important. Also, if you are interested in what's happening in classical music today -- modern interpretations and/or compositions -- LP won't have that. A major point for me is that digital recording and playback has much better pitch stability. The piano sounds completely different on CD -- much more like a piano!

LP is better for listening to old performances that were mastered for LP. Many were poorly transferred to digital and can sound shrill.

The LP is basically 1899 technology! Emile Berliner invents the flat disk with a spiral groove read by a stylus! In 1948 groove size is reduced along with rotational speed (CBS Labs in Stamford, CT). The modern LP is born!

You have part of your answer in type of cartridge used but it is not the whole story. How sensitive are your ears in pitch and speed variations?
How good is the recording? How good is your cartridge alignment? How quiet is your vinyl and phono set up? But even if solving these out you may still find that SACD, Hi-res, and CD can sound really good too. 

My take, based on MY priorities, of course.

For me, there is a fundamental difference in the sound of digital vs the sound of analog and this difference can be heard, to one degree or another, no matter how expensive or close to SOTA your equipment is. Before anyone goes off the deep end, please understand that I am in no way saying that streaming cannot sound good. It most definitely can, but the sound will always have some degree of a certain character that can be attributed to the process of digitization. Analog recordings and playback may have some of this character as well depending on whether there any digitization was employed in the mastering process. Streaming is a digital process, so some degree of that character will be there even with pure analog recordings. A pure analog recording played back on LP will not have digital artifacts; it will have other artifacts, but that is another story. Why is this important to your question?

IMO, the less processing or amplification that the sound of musical instruments is put through, the more that any digital artifacts added along the way will be audible. Acoustic instruments are, by definition, not amplified nor their sounds processed. What music uses acoustic instruments just about exclusively? Classical music.

The issue then becomes familiarity with the sound of live acoustic instruments. The more one is familiar with the sound of live acoustic instruments, the more sensitive one may be to the effects of digitization. Whether those effects or artifacts are more egregious to a given listener than LP surface noise or lack of absolute pitch stability is a personal call and dependent, in part, on the quality of your analog setup.

For me, a well set up turntable/arm/cart of good (not necessarily great) quality playing a decent pressing of an analog recording (and some digital recordings) will beat any streaming that I have heard, hands down. This, based on MY priorities of fidelity to the timbre/texture of acoustic instruments, natural acoustic warmth and very subtle dynamic nuance. It will sound closer to the sound of live acoustic instruments enough to obviate any possible advantages of streaming. Ever notice how different good analog recordings on LP tend to sound due to the different recording venues? Those differences are a really good thing in my book, and they often get homogenized to some degree by digitization/streaming.

So, as usual, the short answer is, it depends. For me, it’s a no brainer.

As phrased, this is kind of a non-sensical question. What matters is the quality of the front end components on both sides of the issue.

To create a more specific comparison, I believe a well chosen $5000 digital front end can now clearly outperform a well chosen $10,000 analog front end. This can be shown easily even using well chosen 44/16 files from analog sources available also as vinyl.

Give it a rest. 
Get off my lawn.
Meh.

It IS an idiotic question.  What sounds best to one has little bearing on what sounds best to others.  The goal is musical enjoyment, not grade school uniforms.

I listen to a lot of classical. My classical LP albums are primarily/mostly ‘vintage’ (pre 80’s), albeit I have some newer LP’s as well, but very few. I also have many classical CD’s, many of those of ‘vintage’ performances as well. Some of my CD’s sound pretty good too. In that regards, no matter what format, it really comes down to the quality of the recording and engineering, and I find that incredibly important with classical (especially) regardless of the source.

But

I almost always play vinyl. To me it just sounds more organic, natural, proper timber, etc. there is a natural ‘flow’ of the music vinyl provides that is hard to beat, and when we are talking about classical, with acoustic instruments, that just sounds better and correct. To me.

Now, to compare digital to vinyl is very dependent on your rig, both vinyl and digital. There is little doubt that if you invest in a better vinyl system, the nuances that only vinyl can offer will be better realized, no matter the genre. Does that mean you have to spend a fortune? No, not in my opinion. But there are some improvements you receive by spending more. There is no way around it.

I just purchased Hilary Hahn’s new ‘Paris’ LP. I didn’t even consider the CD version. That LP is stunning in its recording, engineering, and the performance too. There is no doubt newer recordings can sound quite good, again, regardless of the source. But that new album on vinyl is amazing, to me.

There is no ‘right or wrong’ answer here. Just what you prefer and get the most enjoyment from. I know what I prefer, and quite honestly wish all my classical selections were on vinyl.

Is the "Paris" LP an all analog recording?

when the vinyl playback tools and the vinyl pressings are top notch the vinyl classical music reproduction experience is unsurpassed. of my approximately 3000 Classical Lps, this magic happens maybe 60% of the time. my best sounding 45rpm classical vinyl is a force of nature and pinch me level of musical involvement. digital does not come close to this.

that said; my overall listening is about 60% digital classical since it is very very good to great and so accessible. i love exploring new classical titles with Tidal and Quboz, or listening to my high rez classical files. i have many dxd and quad dsd classical files. i could be completely happy just with the high rez classical.

if i were starting over i would not do the vinyl classical as acquiring the best pressings is not only expensive but takes considerable effort and patience. and for great classical vinyl the investment for the tt, arm, cart is not trivial. Jazz or rock can be very fine on more modest levels of investment. classical music will really expose any warts.

finally it does come down to what level of expectations you have for the performance. which only you can determine. my expectations are very high, and i have devoted considerable resources to high level classical vinyl playback. i have 4 turntables, one of which is my ’go-to’ for classical music.

I was reminded again last night, even though I didn't play any classical, I played some jazz that had no electronic instruments, just how good vinyl can sound.

It just really perks my attention and enjoyment when vinyl sounds this good. I do also love my digital front end, and yes, some multi-channel classical music, but when the vinyl is good, it just sounds so "right"..

You've got to love this stuff........

Regards,
Dan  

@melm 

Is the "Paris" LP an all analog recording?

I have to assume it was a digital recording. I believe most new classical albums are digitally recorded, but I’m not sure for Paris. Her Retrospective LP was an analog recording, but not so sure about this one. It does not specifically state in on the LP itself, not in any reviews I’ve read, which are very few.

To me, it matters little as it still sounds great. I have some LP’s that were digitally recorded (most in the 80’s, the record companies were proud of that at the time and made sure it was stated on the cover typically) and while some still sound very good on vinyl regardless, some not so much. It really comes down to mastering and engineering. You cannot make a broad brush declaration that one is worse or better than another.

Not looking to pick a fight here.  I am an old-time classical music analog lover still with major investment in analog.  Until about 4 years ago I couldn't listen to digital for more than 20 minutes at a time.  I would have been in full agreement then.   Problem is that while everyone knows that you had to spend some bucks for good analog, digital with great specs seemed to come pretty cheap.  I thought when I bought an Oppo 105 that digital nirvanas should have arrived.  But classical demands so much more.

Truth is you have to spend more on digital and do it with the kind of care we analog veterans are accustomed to.  In any event, I am here at the moment simply to take issue with the "the nuances that only vinyl can offer" remark.   Given that a favored LP is giving the sort of pleasure described, and I don't for a moment doubt that, some credit must be allocated to its digital source.

Cheers.

@melm

Fair enough.

In any event, I am here at the moment simply to take issue with the "the nuances that only vinyl can offer" remark. Given that a favored LP is giving the sort of pleasure described, and I don’t for a moment doubt that, some credit must be allocated to its digital source.

Not classical, but a perfect example, that only I can confirm. Not classical, but just bought The Trinity Session by the Cowboy Junkies. It arrived yesterday. When that album fist came out, I bought it on cassette, then/and CD. So, had both for a long long time.

After listening to both the cassette and CD versions not so long ago, I decided to buy the period vinyl. As stated, arrived yesterday.

I dropped the needle and was immersed in that vinyl version much more than by my digital version, and also more than the cassette (albeit, that was a time period when cassettes were actually pretty good, some call the mid-80’s and into the 90’s their ‘golden years’). There is a depth, a naturalness, timber and tone, and small details that both sprang out of that album in vinyl form while also ‘sucking me in’ like never before. If you are familiar, that album is very quiet, and recorded pretty ‘raw”, similar to many classical or older jazz trio type recordings.

That is an example of an ‘album’ I’m very familiar over the years, loved it, but have only really listened to it in digital form (and cassette, as I said, and still have a Nakamichi deck that plays my cassettes from time to time). Bottom line never had it or ever remember hearing it on vinyl, and it simply ‘blew me away’ in comparison to other formats I know well. That’s what I meant, and I’ll stick to it. Same can be said for some of the same classical selections I have in both formats, but to be honest, those are much fewer.

I think I made it pretty clear, this is all very subjective, and there are an incredible number of factors, but I know what I prefer, and perhaps you do as well. Great. Enjoy the music.

@petg60  please explain  further on the cartridge. I always was led to  believe that a MC, granted I have a HO one, is  better for classical and  jazz. I do need my cartridge to play a wide variety of music, including rock, but would be curious what you would might suggest.

@bkske I will have check out that Hilary Hahn  album.

@mikelavigne  thanks for the honest assessment. I  am trying to seek out vintage classical recordings, as I mentioned many end up at the local transfer station in my area, so I am not  giving up yet.

Everyone else thanks for your input. I thought I  might get more technical advice on my current rig in regards to fine tuning my vinyl but we'll see.

@bkeske

Cowboy Junkies ‎– The Trinity Session is a digital recording.  Surely there was a DAC somewhere in the process of producing the vinyl, that would have provided the same profound immersion, etc., as you found in the lp.  That is, unless you think there was something extra added in the process of producing the vinyl that was not in the original digital R-Dat recording and that provided all that good stuff..

Apparently mastering a CD is a process where things can go wrong, or at least not very right.  In that sense it is just like mastering an LP.  I have experienced what you have, that is an LP clearly outperforming digital.  I have also experienced the opposite.

Finally, though quality does not correlate perfectly with expense, generally speaking if you spent less on your DAC than you have spent on your turntable + arm + Cartridge + phono preamplifier it is not a fair comparison, IMO.

I have to admit that many of my London and Angel/EMI LPs, especially the operas, do sound better than anything I get either via CD or streaming. Then again, I have to reiterate that it's the original recording that ultimately counts, not the format with which the music wends its way to my ears.

I agree re Decca/London and EMI recordings.  They are my favorites for the most realistic orchestral sound.  Kenneth Wilkinson was a wonderful engineer.  It is the recording that ultimately counts.  Having said that, for me, that same recording will almost always sound best on LP.  Btw, many of those London operas box sets are some of the greatest bargains out there.  They can still be found sometimes in bargain bins.  

@idigmusic64,
forgive my late reply. A more revealing and refined cartridge would give you more in classical and jazz listenings also. Your phono stage can equaly accept both MM & MC, so you have plenty to choose from. At nearly the same pricing as the Sumiko you can check Dynavector 10X5, Hana EL, and Goldring 1042. All three would be a worthwile upgrade to the Blue Point.

@melm

Cowboy Junkies ‎– The Trinity Session is a digital recording.

Who cares. The fact remains that it sounds better playing back on vinyl than any other digital source. My digital files/CD cannot compare. Not even close to my ears.

As I stated, I have a few classical vinyl albums from the 80’s that were proud of being digitally recorded (and they made sure to tell you on the cover). Does not mean I want the CD.

Enjoy what you will, as will I. And I continue to buy vinyl because of my preference regardless of whether it was recorded digital or analog. But, I have both, and listen to both.

Enjoy.

I listen to classical 90%-95% of the time.
I own about 3000 records and 5000 CDs.
‘But lately, I’m listening almost exclusively to streaming. Why? Because of the limitless variety of titles available. I always had the SQ priority of sound sources: LP, followed by SACD, followed by CD, followed by streaming.
‘However, I’ve tweaked my system to the point that there is now not a lot of difference. It requires a lot of time and effort to do this.
It may be true that the best records sound better than anything else, but I don’t believe anymore that digital is inherently inferior to analog. Until recently I firmly believed that to be the truth.

In any case, the music comes through to me very acceptably now in all formats.

What rvpiano sez... Putting it another way, when it comes to music, streaming is the proverbial Aladdin’s Cave. Admittedly, the classical selection will never be quite as luxurious as the one I had access to when I worked at Tower Classical Records in Hollywood, so many decades ago. But I must also say the sound quality from the streaming sites is more than good enough for me to stop worrying and love the bomb.

21st century digital will ALWAYS beat vinyl, hand down on ALL areas:

- resolution
- convenience
- S/N ratio
- longevity
- copyability
- dynamic range
- price

Anyone claiming otherwise is dreaming.
They should read up on RIAA equalization and the limitations of recording of frequencies on vinyl.

I don't own a vinyl rig, but one thing I have noticed listening to others vinyl rigs is the symbols always sound more natural to me than on any digital I've ever heard.

Hey, who knew?  I’ve been dreaming all this time 🤫

After writing the above post, I decided to give records another spin, as I hadn’t listened to them in a while.  I did some A-B comparisons with the same title: streaming vs. LP.
Well, I hate to admit it,  There is a quantifiable difference between the two.  Just listening to the streaming by itself sounded great until I compared it to the LP.  The latter opened up the sound to a much wider spectrum.  Lifting the proverbial veil.
Okay,  but I’m not giving up streaming because of this.
The benefits are still significant to me.

I used to have a cool Rega RP 1 with a $150 MM cartridge.
And a built in phono stage in a Rega Brio integrated.
Think your TT rig is much beyond this. For sure, the playback was modest, but the physicality of the needle vibrating in the record grove produced a sound that was just more enjoyable that a much more clear and dynamic CD.

For me, it’s:

1. DSD and 24/192
2. Vinyl
3. CD

The main reasons for this order, for me is, that with classical, I care a lot about imaging, soundstage and other spatial cues. And I think DSD, 24/192 and vinyl do those things better than CD (16/44.1). CD creates a very flat image, musicians have this cardboard cutout kind of presentation, where the other formats create a 3d, palpable, image of the musicians.

I am willing to give up the increase in dynamic range and quietness of CD over vinyl, in order to get better imaging and soundstage.

But with DSD (and 24/192), you get all the benefits of CD (dead quiet, great dynamic range), and the benefits of vinyl (better imaging and 3d soundstage). With no real tradeoffs that I can hear.

Welcome home, rv 😊.  

I must make one point, however.
When listening to music on any source, if the musical message comes through with an acceptably high degree of sonic quality, I don’t think we should agonize over: Will it sound a little better in another format?  

Enjoy the music, for heaven’s  sake!

Last night I listened to my Chailly Mahler CD box set with The Royal Concertgebouw, a wonderful set. I chose Mahler’s 9th, an amazing symphony. But it hit me, I’ve never had it on vinyl.

So searched, found a copy of Barbirolli conducting Mahler’s 9th with the Berliner Philharmoniker originally recorded in 1965. The one I chose is a German re-pressing from EMI, and ordered it last night.


Can’t wait to hear that symphony on vinyl.

**** I must make one point, however.
When listening to music on any source, if the musical message comes through with an acceptably high degree of sonic quality, I don’t think we should agonize over: Will it sound a little better in another format?  

Enjoy the music, for heaven’s  sake!  ****

Couldn’t agree more and it goes without saying.  No need to agonize, but when we have the choice ........

And, the OP did ask the question.  Not to mention that, as always in this hobby, “little” is in the ear of the listener.

bkeske, fantastic performance!  Barbirolli’s Adagio from the 9th is incredible.  Can’t vouch for the German pressing, but it is a wonderful recording.  Enjoy! 

bkeske,

‘’That Barbirolli Mahler 9th LP set is great in every way, sonically gorgeous.

Being a big fan of mid to late 20th century, and contemporary classical music (you know, the 'thorny' sounding stuff), I have a quite a few vinyl recordings on Nonesuch records in their "Spectrum: New American Music" series. 

These were considered a budget label release at the time (late 60's to mid 70's). But despite that, I don't believe I have any other recordings in my collection, on any format, that creates such an amazingly tangible soundstage and 3d image within that soundstage. 

If you ever want to test a system for how well it images and creates a soundstage, get one of these recordings. Most good used records stores will have copies.  

Just to give you an idea what to look for, these recordings all have a similar look to this -

https://www.discogs.com/Jacob-Druckman-Joseph-Schwantner-John-Harbison-Spectrum-New-American-Music-Volume-III/release/13338316

@rvpiano  @frogman 

Fantastic, I’m glad you have both heard it. I have not. It’s interesting, on Discogs there are not a lot of Mahler 9th available on vinyl, but Barbirolli’s seemed to get high marks from other owners of the set.

I have other recordings with him at the helm, and am rarely disappointed.

@simonmoon 

Thanks for that. I’ll check that out. I’m a fan of similar 20th century composers. 
In fact, will be spinning some Varese tonight. Already pulled.

I have a reasonable vinyl collection and I can tell that having an LP does not mean automatic heaven. If you have a weak pressing, no turntable / cartridge on Earth can help. If you have a good pressing, then the situation is quite different, but that takes experience and luck to come by.
Vinyl rig is something that takes years to set up properly, even when you are an experienced vinylophile. When set up right, then vinyl vs digital issue was not an issue anymore to me, I just noticed at one point that I have not turned on my digital for over a year to listen to music.(Use them to listen to netflix every day though). That was my experience.

I think when digital is set up properly, it is fantastic for electronic music, but classical is one area where it cannot touch analogue: there's a piece of life missing, and the lowest level of details is not there, it's obscured by the artificial black-out noisefloor, that we perceive as pitch-black quietness. It sounds "correct", though.

Digital feels like a perfect recorded event, a performance brought to your room to our present day.
LP feels like I am there with the performers as the events unfold. The event is not brought to me, but I am brought back to the event, to join in with the hearts, minds and souls of the humans who created it.

@bkeske

You will probably love the Barbirolli Berlin Mahler 9.  It's a great performance and a very good recording, if just a bit dry.  If you do, and on the theory that the best pressings come from the country where originally produced, you might then want to search for a British pressing.  I have a British (EMI) pressing as well as an Angel.  Of course they are quite different.

The liner notes will tell you that Barbirolli recorded the last movement first.  He wanted the orchestra to be at their best for it.

At least on my system, vinyl wins the day.

@melm 

Fingers crossed on the 9th. The Germany EMI is labeled an EMI/His Masters Voice release, similar to the original UK 1965 releases I believe. I looked at those too, but took a chance on the German reissue (perhaps late 60’s-early/mid 1970’s per cover design?) as it received a bit higher owner ratings on Discogs over the original. But, I’ve learned you cannot always count on those ratings as an indication of better sound quality. Regardless, worth the shot. Not a bad price if it is in the condition advertised.

@bkeske

Well good luck.  It would be great if it works for you.  I have a couple of HMV disks derived from EMI British productions, though not the Mahler 9.  The German vinyl is very quiet, but the sharp edges seem rounded as compared to original EMIs.  Here's hoping YMMV.  

simonmoon -- I have lots and lots of Nonesuch LPs in my collection.  Pressings can be iffy and not every release sounds good (most do, though!), but all in all it is it is one of my favorite labels.  Always interesting. Always just a bit offbeat. A true labor of love by its creators.

Vinyl will always be king.

+1 @melm . Do digital right, and it sounds great. But don't spend $5000 on a cartridge alone and compare it to an Oppo player and expect digital perfection.

Also -- again -- for a serious music lover, there is essentially NO new recording on LP. If you want to revel in glories of past performances -- and many are glorious -- then LP is for you. If you want to keep up to any degree with what is happening NOW, you need a good digital source.
Finally: the wavering piano tone on many, if not most, LPs doesn't bother vinyl aficionados? (It sure bothers me.) Or do you all have Nakamichi Dragon CT turntables? The very first CD I heard presented a more convincing reproduction of a piano than most of the LPs I'd heard at the time.