What a great post! Apart from confirming what I have always thought to be true (my Musical Fidelity B1's specs aren't any better, and indeed are much worse than many Sony, Pioneer, & etc. components) you raise important issues regarding cost vs. service. For $150, I'm likely to discard and purchase a new DAC should it fail. On the other hand, if the $400 Cambridge Audio DAC failed, I'd be quite reluctant to toss it.
Having flexibility of inputs is not a bad thing. As you note, many will become obsolete, but I suspect that USB has a good deal of life left in it, and should it be replaced, that adapters of one sort or another will extend the lifespan a touch. I tend to keep older equipment when it works well, so that might be okay.
Putting aside the truly inexpensive options, I wonder how much difference I would hear between the Keces, the Audio Sector and the Vintage Audiolabs NOS DACs--probably much less of a difference than between NOS and up sampling models. If I take the NOS route, the Vintage Audio Labs offers a variety of inputs (I'll use USB primarily, but on occasion the digital in from my rather harsh sounding HK CD player). If I take the up sampling route, I'll have to spend a good bit more.
I am learning a good deal from all of the input offered here, and once again, thanks to all.
Best, |
Hi Prof -
yep, they do all sound a bit different. Function of the way the wiring is done, chip used, power supply etc. as well as the designers choices about how to voice it.
What we pretty much know is that coming using a hard drive as a transport greatly improves sound quality by eliminating the problems that are inherent in a 40 year old realtime electro-optical-mechanical design.
And that second to the problems of variable spin speeds and lasers reading pits; the second biggest quality problem to date has to do with poor SPDIF implementation.
SPDIF and Toslink are legacy systems that will fade away over time - though that is probably a decade due to the lifespan of much of this gear.
Yes you can get a Toslink capable DAC and link it to your old CDP - but what's the point - the CDP is inherently quality limited and to buy a Toslink DAC now is to make a dead end investment.
What drives the consumer electronic market is volume. What has unprecedented volume right now is iTunes, iPod and iPhone. In the past 5-6 years, over 100 million consumers worldwide now have some or all of their music on a hard drive. Many only buy downloadable music. This is what is going to drive the technology going forward -
Keep in mind that 2 channel redbook format audio needs very little bandwidth - the current standards and technologies provide plenty.
That makes future proofing difficult since it is most likely that the next file transfer technology will be designed for broader bandwidth media and to be wireless.
Following this logic, for 2009 a DAC with USB and WiFi would be the ticket. To see beyond that wait for the next CES and the next Intel Developers Forum and Apple Developers Forum.
But in terms of what you can buy today with your budget, go USB. You are safe for at least 3 years which is darn good in this day and age. The market is just too big to move any faster.
ALSO As you point out, there are many headphone users. Keces just introduced their 152 for this market which combines the DAC, preamp and power amp functions in one small form factor. I am sure it sounds great; and I am equally sure you will see more of these kinds of designs coming from Taiwan and China.
Using Keces as an example most people are aiming at one market or the other - the issue of course being that headphone users don't need the kind of wattage that people need to drive speakers.
It will take some digging - look to the east.
As far as support - its tricky since shipping a product back to Taiwan for a repair and then shipping it back will cost a disproportionate amount of the initial purchase price. Coupled with the construction techniques used, outright replacement is probably more cost effective.
This is a situation where you query the supplier/manufacturer first about his policies. Chance are that if it runs for a week after it arrives, it will run for many years.
Its also a you pays your money and makes your choices thing - by giving up the traditional importer/distributor model and dealing with the manufacturer you get a lot more for your money. But you don't get the same kind of service that someone who manufactures in the US and has a dealer network can provide.
IMHO, the hot ticket soon will be an integrated amp with a USB DAC built in, sufficient wattage to drive the average speaker (whatever that is) and enough niceties like remotes and headphone jacks to compete with the other integrated amps in the market place.
Eliminating components saves money and improves sound quality. It also uses less space which is important in every culture but ours. And it is greener which sooner or later will make a difference. |
The Keces 151 USB DAC is definitely on my short list.
At the risk of being contrary, while the DAC is simply a converter, it does seem that the implementation of the conversion is somewhat important. For example, NOS vs. up sampling DACs sound somewhat different. Within each of those categories, some work better than others (for example, my M-Audio FastTrack Pro is a DAC, but I find the sound to be less than ideal).
At the moment, if I can spend more, I'm leaning toward the Musical Fidelity, Cambridge Audio, and Musiland DACs. Otherwise, the Keces, and Vintage Audio Labs seem like good choices.
Considerations:
* In each category, what will sound best?
* Do I need inputs other than the USB? Not at the moment, but someday perhaps?
* Are there differences in reliability? Will I receive good support in the off chance that there is a problem with the product?
* I own a pair of Grado SR-120s: perhaps I will want this to do double duty as a headphone amp?
I am going to look around a little more and update the listing that I started above.
Best,
|
Get a Keces 151 USB DAC dor $250, and quit worrying. It will deliver what is on the CD.
No matter which DAC you choose; part one is to rip it right. Part 2 is to amplify it right.
Part 3 is to place your speakers correctly.
At the end of the day a DAC should have no character. It is simply a converter.
BTW forget about Firewire - the universe has chosen. There is no need for the bandwidth. |
I have much more to do, of course. I've dropped the Apogee Mini-DAC from my list as it is too expensive, the Beresford as it hasn't a USB or Firewire input, and the Squeezebox Classic as it is not what I thought it was. I'm likely to remove the Blue Circle and Fubar as I don't think that they compete with the others for my intended purpose.
The Cambridge Audio DacMagic seems to get slightly better reviews than the Musical Fidelity V-DAC, but I am still open minded about the the latter. If it is anywhere near as good as their other products, it has to be worth consideration. Finally, I'm finding it difficult to learn more about the AudioSector USB NOS DAC by Peter Daniel. I remain interested though...
My so-called short list is about to get a good deal shorter.
Thanks again to all for posting,
--Patrick
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Here is a little more information--I'll have to fill in some blanks....
AudioSector USB NOS DAC Peter Daniel
$280
NOS
USB Others?
Bersesford TC-7510 MK6/4
£200
US twin WM8740
Digital Only
Blue Circle USB
$190
?
USB/SPDIF
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
$399
USB/Coax/Optical
DIYEDEN SVDAC05 USB DAC
$199
CS4398 / PCM2704
Fubar III
$350
PCM2702/OPA2604AP
USB
KECES 151 USB DAC
$225
NOS PCM 2702
USB
MHDT Paradisea
&599
NOS Philips TDA 1545A
USB / toslink / coaxial
Musical Fidelity V-DAC
$300
USB/Coax/Optical
Musiland MD 10 Bit Select USB DAC
$300
USCS4398
USB/Coax/BNC
Styleaudio Carat HD1-V
£130
Burr Brown 2704
USB
Vintage Audio Lab DAC
$180
NOS TDA 1543
USB/Digital
Yulong DAH 1 USB DAC
$280
AD1955
USB/Coax
|
OK, since the OP has generously undertaken to inform the curious of his discoveries... there are two DACs at the low end which interest me. One is the Beresford, from the U.K. http://www.beresford.me/others/main.htmland the other is the VALAB mentioned above, which is made by an outfit in Taiwan and sold on eBay. http://stores.ebay.ca/Vintage-Audio-LabI would use such a converter with a computer-based portable system if its sound were better than that of my M-Audio Audiophile USB external. I tend towards the VALAB DAC because their description on eBay is wonderfully enticing. The unit is said to be "sweat sounding", and I'm sure that would be great for rock. |
I just visited the Audio Magus site, and I don't see the MagiDac listed. Is that a discontinued item? If so, perhaps I can find a used one at a good price.
I am both excited and riddled with indecision as it seems that there are a number of possibilities, even buying new, that match my budget.
I'll keep posting as I move forward just in case someone else is considering a similar purchase.
At the risk of perseverating, thank you once again to all for your valuable advice.
Best,
--Patrick
|
Sub $350 you should seriously consider the Audiosector. You might also consider the VALAB DAC (which sell on eBay under Vintage Audio Labs) for $180. I have seen a used iRoc DAC go for as low as $485 recently.
One other to consider is the Audio Magus MagiDAC. Looks good on paper.
|
I have a piece of hardware similar to the Focusrite--an M-Audio Fast Track Pro that I use for dumping midi and misc. audio into ProTools. While I find this to a useful piece of hardware, I never considered the output to be that good. I suspect that the DACs with the M-Audio aren't quite as good as those in the Focusrite.
The M-Audio does offer digital output, however. I wonder if I could use that with a non-USB DAC but remain concerned that it would be one more piece of equipment (and an extra variable) in the line.
I placed an offer for an iRoc that's listed on this forum, but I doubt the seller will consider it as it is worth much more than I can afford to offer for now. |
Considering the dozens of choices that is a bit of a "short list". ;)
I've considered several possibilites as well over the last year or two. So what did I end up with? A pro rather than consumer audio piece in the Focusrite Saffire Le which connects the computer via firewire. I also have a NOS tube DAC in the Paradisea+ (non-USB version).
www.focusrite.com/products/saffire/saffire_le/ |
Given that Mr. Moore lives within driving distance from me, that is quite attractive.
A little searching makes me think that his products even at a used price might fall well outside my price range. I'll keep an eye open just in case!!!
I suppose it wouldn't hurt to drop him a line either...
Best,
--Patrick
|
http://whathifi.com/Review/Musical-Fidelity-V-DAC/ offered a positive review but indicated that the latest Cambridge Audio DACMagic offered better value.
Of course, I would love to have an A/B comparison.
My computer does have a firewire output, but it appears that the Apogee mini-dac runs about $1000. Do you think it possible to find one used in my price range?
Two things:
1) I know that I am asking for a lot for a little
2) I really appreciate everyone's input; since I can't listen to all of these options, it is great to have opinions from those who have had the opportunity to listen to some of these items.
Thanks again to all,
--Patrick
|
For pure goofiness, go with the Blue Circle "Thingy" and save a lot of money.
If you want to stick with something built in the US by a fellow Northern Ohioan, buy a used Ultra Fi iRoc. Another nice thing about the iRoc is tha Larry Moore still lives in Ohio (Cincinnati) and service or upgrades would never be an issue. He also typically allows trade-ins toward his newer product. Plus, you can call Larry up on the phone most any time and get product engineering details or other information about his products.
Enjoy,
TIC |
From your description of the kind of sound you like, and judging by your preference for the MF B1 and the KEFs, I'm sure you would like the Apogee very much. However you would either have to luck onto a used one already equipped with a USB card (Apogee have discontinued the card) or get a FireWire card for your PC, and then a Mini-DAC with FireWire. That would be well over your budget. Your tastes are well-defined. Can you get a listen to any of these units? I owned a couple of earlier-model Cambridge DACMagics a while ago and I thought the version 1 was not good while the version 2 was good value. The new DACMagic may be very good, but listening is obviously what will tell you. Alternatively, try to get a 30-day return option if you can't listen before you buy. Failing these, you may need to be prepared to buy and then sell on any units that don't meet expectations. If you're going to try to choose by user reviews and comments, search the archives here and also try Audio Asylum (the Digital-General and Digital-PC Audio forums ) and Head-Fi. And since you like your Musical Fidelity amp, you might want to add the new V-DAC to your list... ;o) Wish I could tell you a killer in your price range... http://www.head-fi.org/forums/search.phphttp://www.audioasylum.com/index.html |
An update:
Given the price range that I have in mind, I'm leaning toward new rather than used. The Cambridge Audio DACMagic has received favourable reviews, even edging out the Musical Fidelity V-DAC. Peter Daniel's USB DAC continues to receive high praise, but I haven't seen direct comparisons with the DACMagic. Ditto for the KECES DA-151 USB DAC.
Best,
Patrick |
Both of you make an excellent point about this list being somewhat long. I wish that I could provide a cogent argument for the inclusion of each item on the list, but the embarrassing, sad truth of the matter is that I have no idea of what I am doing.
What is important to me?
1) Quality of sound with a budget. Clearly, the former is quite subjective while I can specify the latter (<$350 or thereabouts). If it helps, some of my favourite speakers include the KEF 105 reference series, or on a budget, the Kef 103.3 reference pair. The best amp that I ever owned was the Classe A1 (magnificent for the money). I have three amplifiers at the moment: Music Fidelity B1 integrated, an old Luxman receiver (back when they were a decent choice) and an Harmon Kardon reciever (vintage between when they were okay but earlier than when they became pieces of dung). By far, I like the B1 best.
I listen to a wide variety of music but am most critical when listening to Jazz or Classical. A clear sound stage, mellow but accurate highs, crisp and controlled (even at the expense of range) bass, and lack of listener fatigue rank top among my concerns.
2)Versatility: My computer has both firewire and USB outputs, so I could go either way. I also have an HK CD player with RCA optical out, so if this device could serve double duty, that would be a nice plus.
Thank you to both for asking questions to help me to clarify what I'm trying to do.
Best,
--Patrick |
Holy cow! That's quite a "short" list. It makes me wonder what the "long" list from which it was culled looks like. I'm going to make a suggestion. How did the short list come out of the long list? If people know that, they might have an idea as to what is important to you and could then advise accordingly. |
"Your list indicates you have done a doctoral on the subject, "Prof". Jolly good show."
Thank you for the kind words. More information here:
http://www.utoledo.edu/as/music/faculty/p_fairfield.html
Best,
--Patrick |
Your list indicates you have done a doctoral on the subject, "Prof". Jolly good show. |
Thank you for posting.
I just realized that the Apogee may well be out of my price range unless I find a good deal on a used one.
I understand that an increasing number of people are considering this sort of approach, so I hope that this thread may be of use to others as well as to me.
Best,
--Patrick a.k.a Music Doc |
Long list, wowee. Haven't heard anything like all of them. For my 2 cents you won't go wrong with the Apogee, but it costs more than some of the others. Good luck. |
