Why do subs sound bloated or slow?

Instruments that produce very low frequency sound are "bloated and slow". A 30 foot organ pipe, for example, takes a while to develop its full output. The typical subwoofer is "faster" than the sounds it reproduces, which is as it should be.

My bottom line is that when I optimize my subs for smoothest FR in a co-planar arrangement it sounds no better (or worse) than when the subs are FR optimized for placement 2 1/2 feet behind the mains...I'm pretty confident (can't be 100% sure, though) that no one would characterize the bass that I'm currently producing as either bloated or slow... So, my experience just runs counter to your theory.

I don't doubt your experiences, Marty, and I thank you for sharing them. FWIW, the theory I proposed in the OP wasn't intended to be an exhaustive account of the variables that determine good subwoofer integration. I have no doubt that there are many things I have failed to consider. In fact, that was the principal reason I started the thread - to explore some of those things with people who, like me, use subs in their 2 channel systems.

And FWIW, I'm not trying to convert anyone to a theory that I only tentatively believe. I apologize if I appear that way.

Bryon

Bryon,

Certainly no need to apologize - particularly since there is a clean chain of logic to your theory. I've just found that, in my experience, varying the listener to sub distance doesn't produce any audible issues TO MY EAR, provided that FR is appropriately EQ'd. Of course, that last bit about MY EAR always requires the YMMV disclaimer.
It is always possible that other listeners are more sensitive to the phenomenon than I am, so my responses should be treated as a single data point in the discussion, and that is the purpose for which they were intended.

Marty

Marty, you mention in your response that you had your speakers/subs coplanar. That might not actually result in optimal time alignment depending on a number of factors. In particular, if there is EQ on the subs, that can delay the signal by anywhere from one to several milliseconds. That means your subs might need to be one to several feet closer to your listening position than your speakers for proper time alignment. If you have a means to delay your mains, that's easiest, but otherwise you're stuck moving the subs. There may be other sources of delay, too. But even if there is no delay, the subs may need to be a bit forward or back from the mains. In my case, the optimal position put the subs an inch or so in front of my mains.

Some people may already know this, but there's a neat trick for getting your time alignment close: You flip the polarity of either your mains or your subs (whichever is easier), then play a tone at the crossover frequency (e.g., and 80 Hz tone for an 80 Hz crossover). You then adjust the delay (or sub position) to *minimize* the SPL at the listening position. (You're effectively maximizing destructive interference.) When you're done, you flip the polarity back to normal, and you should be very close to time aligned. From there you can listen to a music passage that spans the crossover frequency and move the subs an inch or so at a time and see what sounds best. If you've moved your subs a lot from their original position, you should probably re-EQ before this last step.

It's a fun Saturday project, even if you can't possibly leave the subs in their final position. And you can let your ears tell you if time alignment matters for your system. In my case, it was a huge difference. As Marty says, YMMV.

Cbw,

Good point re: time coherence and co-planar siting, and an interesting test excersize that makes some sense. Never tried it, but - if I get the energy - I will.

I spent well over a year screwing around with my subs daily (during a long early retirement/extended unemployment stretch) which allowed for pretty much unlimited indulgement (other than wife imposed constraints) in such activities. Now that I'm working again, time constraints are a limit, but the idea is appealling and I hope to give it a go at some point.