Why HiFi Gear Measurements Are Misleading (yes ASR talking to you…)

I was hoping this post would encourage some interesting and somewhat philosophical discussion and debate. Not everyone will get the point I was making, or agree with it, which is totally fine. Others will.

@fredrik222 I get your logic but I don’t see how it applies in this case. Also I could be wrong but I think your last sentence may have been worded in the opposite manner than you intended - genuinely not sure here:

“doesn’t mean that there are topics where science can fully explain everything.”

Were you trying to suggest there are topics where science CAN explain everything, and therefore my argument is invalid because there are topics within HIFi that can be fully explained by science?

Again, simply attempting to figure out how your logic applies here. Not sure if I got it right.

@tonywinga I think we are saying the same thing. Use your senses, explain with science. However, I do get your point. Ultimately it’s all sensory. But, at that point we are debating semantics. Maybe “science” is the wrong word to be using above. Maybe it is better to say “Use your senses first, then measure the results to substantiate and further explore what it is your are sensing.” Which is really the entire point of my original anecdote. Like John Atkinson does. In my case researchers dismissed anecdotal accounts of people hearing meteors, which turned out to be wrong. Likewise, I feel people who exclusively measure HiFi equipment without assessing how they sound can miss out on important qualities and assessments of the gear, or come to incorrect conclusions.

Our minds can interfere with the way we subjectively perceive our senses is the point here. But my further point is that it’s the best we have to go on, and there are processes one can go through to get closer to, for lack of better words, as objective as possible subjective assessments. Not sure everyone will get what I mean but that’s the best way I can describe it.

I know I’m sort of arguing both sides a bit which maybe some people don’t get. I’m acknowledging that the ASR camp have elements to their argument that I think are correct, but that ultimately I disagree that it fully supports their overall argument that you can exclusively measure gear to see how it performs. Because as flawed as our senses are with our minds getting in the way to trick us, it is the best we have.

I know that there is a level deeper into the rabbit hole here, where one could argue, our perceptions are all that matter so why does it matter if our minds are tricking us? Valid point, but I’m referring to the instances where we listen to a new USB cable and instantly go “that’s a component level upgrade!” For a week or so, then we later realize the difference was not actually as great as we initially thought. An actual example I ran into.

Great discussion!

@nyev you got it. It is a straw man argument, meaning that it doesn’t actually address anything regarding the topic at hand (consumer hifi equipment science) but gives the false impression that it does (look, science is evolving in astronomy!).

so, if you really want to take on ASR and others, maybe don’t make straw man arguments.
 

also, you need to start with that our mind always interfere with how we experience things. Always. 

@fredrik222 , I get your logic but I still fail to see how it invalidates my point, in any way.  I think it comes down to the fact that maybe there is a belief, which I disagree with, that science has fully explained all aspects of audio but not astronomy.  I don’t believe that is accurate.  I also think that if you believe that, it’s essentially the same degree of closed mindedness that the researchers who didn’t believe that people were hearing meteors exhibited.  There is so much in audio that we cannot explain with measurements.  Yet.

@nyev as a general principle, astronomy or Astro physics is not well understood, while consumer audio is well understood.

and the argument that we can’t explain everything with measurements is another false argument. We can can explain everything in consumer audio, and measurements do not explain anything, they confirm hypotheses. 
 

name just one subject in consumer audio that can’t be explained and one quick google search will immediately prove you wrong. 

@fredrik222, that path unfortunately won’t resolve our friendly debate. Because, I can name any or all of the subjects that ASR followers and other audiophiles disagree with, which don’t have foundations in science. There are theories why burn-in is a thing, but no one has definitively proven it or there wouldn’t be a debate.  And many other examples.  To which some may say, well, burn in is not a thing.  But then we just arrive back to my meteor analogy, which continues to apply just fine!