PS Audio DirectStream DAC measurements by ASR

Yes, I read the whole thread there, and it doesn't look good.  I recently bought the Stellar Gain Cell DAC/pre-amp, and I'm now wondering if it measures similarly.  My greatest concern is the observation of a lack of bass performance and impact, as well as the test result of poor SINAD. 

Good news.  Most every dac he says measures poorly actually sounds very good.  Many of the great measuring dacs, based on his particular set of chosen measurements, sound electronic and artificial to me.  This is good news for PS Audio. 🙂

The basic task of a DAC is to recreate the digital signal without noise. A 6k device is failing in basic measurement. Will you be happy with a car which is advertised at making 400HP making 130HP on dyno? 

Ah, to each his own, though my ears don't particularly care about measurements. 

Rather than put my two cents in on this discussion (I have owned a DS for five years) I would suggest reading the thread on the PS Audio site where Ted Smith, the designer of the DS, and many of the forum members respond to the “findings”.  See https://forum.psaudio.com/t/another-review-of-the-ds-dac/13027

I read those comments. I wish they accepted the shortcomings or technically challenged the measurements than blindly rejecting the shortcomings.

PS: I own a DS jr.

From one of the more useful comments on the PSA site (I do think that thread was worth reading.  In terms of context, it appears most of the response to the review is that the measurements are mostly "bad" because of the DSD's high noise floor, which is an inherent part of the design.

~~~

"tarnishedears:  One of the key design goals of the DS was to create a “DAC” which did not contain any sort of “DAC” per say, but instead it just passively converted a DSD stream to analog using a simple low pass filter. Unfortunately this approach necessarily will have a higher noise floor than will most other approaches.

This is one design goal which the DS DAC shares with some of the Lampazator DACs. The fundamental difference between a DS and (some of the) Lamps is that the Lamp essentially just takes an input DSD stream, and it low-pass filters it (turning it into analog) and then it buffers/amplifies this output using tube output stage.

The DS on the other hand takes all input signals, up-samples the input to 20x DSD and then passively low-pass filters the output, thereby transforming it into analog. But instead of using a tube output stage like the Lamp, the DS Sr uses a 100% passive low-pass filter stage with incorporates an output transformer as the buffer, and as a key part of its filter network.

This is largely a simplified version of same the basic design which Ted’s legendary prototype DAC used (although the firmware on the DS is much more refined now). This is the DAC which he originally pitched to PS Audio. And it is, by all accounts, supposed to be the very best sounding DAC that anyone who has heard it has ever heard.

Part of the magic of this design is that it performs a 100% passive conversion of the digital signal to analog. This is, in fact, what the “Direct Stream” in the name is all about. To not convert to analog this way is to have a DAC which isn’t a Direct Stream DAC. Unfortunately the price for this particular very deliberate engineering design decision is always going to be a higher noise floor.

But unless you are running this DAC straight into your power amp (which I do not recommend) , what does this even matter? This DAC is still just as quiet as was an older CD player containing an 18 bit DAC. And nobody ever complained about those players being too noisy back then, did they? In fact, Amir’s so-called objectivist press would-be peers of time in magazines like Stereo Review were fixated on even the worst CD players of the time having “perfect” sound. To them and that the newer generation of players which incorporated 18 bit DACs were completely unnecessary from their point of view because even the worst players measured “good enough” to them. So which way is it? Does any DAC with less than a theoretical 24 bit noise floor now suck, or was the 16 bit noise floor of a early CD players more than adequate as was claimed as the time? This is a fundamental contradiction which his work would seem to have with the claims which were made by many of the members of yesterday;s objectivist community.

Noise floor does not equal resolution. This is one of the areas where Amir and many of todays objectivist go wrong. Higher resolution is a requirement to have a lower noise floor, but the opposite is not necessarily true as signals can still exist well below the noise floor.

And the DS is still much quieter than any type of analog source, even when using noise reduction. And yet I don’t hear very many audiophiles claiming that 15 ips R2R sounds bad, or that a really quiet LP is way too noisy. Although perhaps Amir very well might maintain such a position? But since I don’t waste my time by closely following his work, I wouldn’t actually know."

The answers to this thread for sure will reassure PS.

No matter that its DAC is introducing harmonics where they don’t exist, that is changing the original music and removing any hope of fidelity. The denial bias of many people confronted with proofs will save their business.
Results from the measurements are obvious: there are $100 DACs with much higher fidelity than the PS Audio DirectStream.

 After these measurements they played the same silly PS arguments to save their face, but at the end they learned the lesson and now they produce acceptable gear. It’s likely that PS will do the same, as they are clever business guys.

The basic task of a DAC is to recreate the digital signal without noise. A 6k device is failing in basic measurement. Will you be happy with a car which is advertised at making 400HP making 130HP on dyno?

Well, actually the measurements made by Amir exceed the specs published by PS Audio. 

Well...I would have to think that anyone who spent hard earned cash on the DS dac must be "stone cold deaf". After all..we all know that measurements in the audiophile community always trump ones own personal preference when it comes to quality of sound... 8)

Trust your ears not the MEASUREBATORS !

Julian Hirsch lives

I recently bought the Stellar Gain Cell DAC/pre-amp, and I'm now wondering if it measures similarly.

 
Well, it actually measures even worse:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-the-ps-audio-stellar-gain-cell-dac.9273/

Cal,
Your post is excellent.  Thank you.

I wonder how all the measurements would look like now after the windham firmware update. The sound has completely changed and just got even better. Way better

I believe the only measurement that would change with a DS dac firmware update would be lower jitter results...

Still measures poorly after the new firmware update.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-dac.9100/page-57#post-239292

And it sounds really, really, really good.

Trust your ears not the MEASUREBATORS !

Trust both, as they go hand in hand, that way your not kidding yourself.  

Yes and no, George. Your statement is more useful - if the proper caveats are included.

@elberoth2
Thanks for the link to the review.  Ugghh.  Looks like I made a bad choice in buying the Stellar Gain Cell DAC/pre-amp.  Interestingly, when using the DAC function, it sounds pretty good on quiet and simple music, but when the music gets more complex and louder, something just doesn't sound right. Hard to describe it.
I like the functionality of it, in that it is also a pre-amp and has home theater bypass, since it is part of a family room system that is used for both music and movies.  I wonder if there is some similar product that actually has good performance. 

Yes and no
if the proper caveats are included.

Yes and Yes

OK the proper caveat would be

"Trust both ears and measurements as they go hand in hand. That’s the way all good audio equipment is made, with good electronic engineering design and hours of testing and measuring, then listening, and if need be, design changes using measurements/test again and listening again."

Any designer that doesn’t do this, I suggest all to give a very wide birth to, as they are snake oil peddlers.

Cheers George

Yes, agree with @georgehifi Shortlist few dacs which have good sinad measurements. If you are mostly listening to redbook format get something which can resolve minimum 16 bit ie 96DB dynamic range.
From there pick one based on listening impressions, features price.

ASR only likes DACs from obscure makers in China that you’ve never heard of. The site’s owner proudly rejects listenability and many times has stated he never once listens to the equipment he tests.

Even when he does find a mainstream product that shows good test results he finds some other reason to damn them.
Look at the Chord Qutest review. Great results. Really, state of the art results but he doesn’t like it because of the user interface or that it doesn’t have balanced outputs. Yet he will say it ranks at or near the very top of any DAC he’s reviewed - he just can’t recommend it.

Topping. That’s the brand he likes. Everything Topping makes is great. Never heard of them? You dolt! They’re the best in the world.
I would tell PS Audio - be happy ASR hates your gear. It must be great.

ASR only likes DACs from obscure makers in China that you’ve never heard of.

This is BS, he is the only one that gives unbiased and almost complete set of test measurements.
He says he doesn't say what he likes and dislikes the sound of , because it would be subjective only.
He is there to supply for those "fortunate to understand them", completely unbiased sets of measurements.
And for those that don't/can't understand them, TO BAD! make an effort to learn how to read them. 

Cheers George

Never heard DirectStream. I use Chord M-Scaler/Qutest. I am analogue guy and Chord is first and only digital that makes music to my ears.
I learn here it measures excellent too. Seems Robert Watts really knows his stuff ...
Owned one very popular Chinese dac with very good measurements -  pure dreck.

Just discovered this thread because I am very interested in PS Audio Stellar Gaincell. The negative review shook me a bit, and the back and forth over it is quite charged. As a novice, I don't have an opinion on the "Do measurements matter?" question, though a recent interview Steve Guttenberg did with John Atkinson did raise the role of measurements. They're not be all, end all, but they tell you if equipment is meeting established standards. At the very least, the negative review that Amir did established some differences between measurement claims vs. what he measured. That, at least, merits some rebuttal from the makers.

Not True! ASR measured the Chord Qutest and it was SOTA and Stereophile measurements had the same results. I own it and it’s fantastic! 😆

ASR measured Benchmark and recommended it. 

I find this whole discussion quite interesting. It shows that the twain shall never meet. I specialize in personality profiling. For analytical people measurements rule. For feeling people, sound rules. There is no way to convince one another. Most things are judged by different standards.

What I do see is that in Amir's web site, his reviews and the comments from his followers are passionately and unnecessarily cruel and nasty. There is no need for name calling and personal attacks questioning integrity. Paul is not the devil incarnate.

I am a feeling guy and love PS Audio's customer policies. I have the opportunity to evaluate their gear for 30 days. This gives me time to let it break in and return it if it doesn't meet my expectations at PS Audio's expense with no restocking fee. Zero cost, zero risk. What more can someone spending good money on a piece of audio gear ask for?

Paul does not always get it right. Who does? But Amir and followers appear to be on a crusade to crucify him.

Being a feeling guy I think of music listening like sex. Do you take measurements of pulse, blood pressure and whatever metrics might apply to ensure that the experience is pleasurable? Or, do you just know it feels great and enjoy it? Do the metrics of a great orgasm really matter?

I read a review a few weeks ago (should have bookmarked it) on a DAC and the author mentioned ASR's poor review of it and how it didn't mesh with the sound he heard. 

He went on to mention another site of enthusiasts who also take measuring seriously and that site regularly takes ASR to task for their faulty testing procedures and the inferior equipment used for their tests.

I found the link to the site that's critical of ASR:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads%25252Fmodi-2u-and-d30-dac-deconstructing-amirs-hack-job-part-ii.6449%25252F=

There's also this: 
https://drop.com/talk/18010/cult-of-audio-science-review-amirs-faithful

All the best,
Nonoise

@ arancano  + 1.  I made the mistake of posting this on the ASR site a couple of days ago.  Silly me.

I just joined this forum today. I read with interest many of the comments in this thread regarding the DirectStream DAC's not so glowing specs. I've only had a few DACs in all of my more than a few years on this earth, but, when making a buying choice, I let my ears decide rather than digging into the spec weeds to decide. In other words, I'm more concerned about a DAC's capabilities and what it sounds like in my system. I just ordered a DirectStream DAC yesterday. I've got thirty days to evaluate it; and if I don't like the synergy, I'll send it back. But, I'm pretty confident that I will like it.

My post starts on page 70.  You might be interested in the back and forth between me and a few ASR regulars.  I finally gave up and stop responding because I knew anything I said was pointless; and to be honest, some of their condescending and hateful posts were beginning to piss me off.

I received the DSD yesterday.  I'm burning it in, and will start A/B tests with my Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE DAC in a week or so.  I like the Tubadour DAC a lot.  I'm anxious to see if the DSD sound is worth the additional cost.   

Why did you post on ASR were you not aware they use science and measurements and will not accept unsubstantiated claims about any product? I read the posts it looked to me like you went there to stir things up a bit and from my perspective they were not that condescending or hateful they kept reminding you it's a science forum not a subjective listener audiophile forum. 

There are the #measurements and then there are the #measurementmorons. ASR crowd are the very definition of the latter. 

And there are #Audiophools who throws money at shiny things which has the worst distortion possible

Does any piece of equipment have "perfect" measurements?  If something sounds good to me, then it is good.  I don't care if it has the worst measurements imaginable.

@ranjithkp - it feels great to throw money at shiny things that sound great.  No reason you can’t be happy with non-shiny things that measure well and sound poor.  You should buy the Topping D10 DAC.  It measures great and sound like crap...win/win for you!

@ djones51.  You are entitled to your perspective, and you are completely wrong about why I posted on ASR.  I knew nothing about ASR before my post, but clearly should have, nor about this thread until after it. I have never nor would I ever intentionally "troll" a site.  To be honest, I'm a little offended that you'd insinuate that about me.    
Moving on.  Over the last couple of days, I've begun to really enjoy my DirectStream DAC.  I had to made gain setting changes to smooth out the sound.  Herron VSTP3A(r02) gain on low; NAD M22v2 gain on low; and DSD gain set to high.  

I've also noticed a big difference between a USB input from a network media player (Innous Zenith MKII) versus a Coax input from a CD transport (McIntosh MCD7008).  All other things being equal, Coax is several db louder, slightly more detailed, and a bit harsher than USB.  USB is warmer, which sounds best to me.  My opinion of the DSD.  So far so good!

That's fine but like I said I didn't see anyone being hateful if anything they were trying to help you which you completely ignored and kept going on with subjective opinions which they repeatedly told you they were not interested in.

I ignored their help because I didn't ask for it, nor do I believe I need it.  I don't understand how anyone can buy a high-end (expensive being relative) stereo component without having read reviews from a variety of sources to narrow the field, and auditioning the equipment in their system.  I value the opinion of folks here and members of the DC Audio club over most on-line reviews.  

Hence, I could care less about scientific measurements posted on ASR, or anyone's opinion of my evaluation methods especially their admin who wrote:

As to your trial, if you don't hear the distortions I heard with this DAC, I suggest learning to compare gear better as your ears are not working for you.

My ears work fine.  And when I have folks over listening to one of my systems, no one has ever asked me about how anything measures or commented on distortion.  But they have commented on how good my systems sound. 

The DirectStream DAC that ASR seems to hate sounds really good in my system. It is more detailed than the Audio Mirror DAC, which I really like.  My Mytek Liberty DAC is also quite detailed, but the DSD is more revealing without the glare.  I arrived at these facts based on hearing not on measurements, and to me there is nothing subjective about it.

@mtrot Wow, you think the SGC lacks bass and impact? If there’s one thing it does have it’s bass and impact, in spades. I have owned many DAC/preamp combos like the SGC and it betters all of them, regardless of measurements. With more than 45 years of audiophile experience there’s one thing I can tell you with absolute certainty: Never get mislead by measurements. Great measurements do not guarantee great sound. And, bad measurements don’t necessarily equate to bad sound. Some of the best gear ever made measures like crap. Forget Amir and ASR, he has no ears, only eyes.

This generation of audiophiles know nothing of Stereo Review and Julian Hirsch. Sheesh, here we go again...

The DirectStream DAC has been the Stereophile magazine A+ recommended component for five years. The beauty of this DAC is that it is based on FPGA and can be constantly upgraded with firmware. There are tons of reviews and discussions about the improvements of every firmware upgrade.

It had a good run but the firmware updates are now no longer on the DSD. Have to wait for a DSD 2...

Enstien, quote

"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted"

2+ year old thread, boys n girls

but yes, asr is surely the modern day julian hirsch... champion on how to fail to see the forest by counting the tree limbs

Didn't Johnny Darko buy one of these? Hope he knows if he pops the hood there's a giant steaming turd inside...lol