"They are here" vs. "You are there"

Hi Bryon,

As someone who listens primarily to classical music, my goal is to duplicate as closely as possible the experience of hearing a live performance from a good seat in a good hall (less extraneous sounds from the audience or other sources, of course). Therefore I am in the "you are there" camp.

I particularly second the comments by CWLondon, and, for the most part, the excellent analysis in your previous post.

The one exception I would take concerns item no. 2. I doubt that it is typically possible for the acoustics of the listening room to resemble those of the recording space in any meaningful way (assuming the recording space is a hall), because the dimensions (and hence the delay times between direct and reflected sound) are so vastly different.

I would therefore comingle your references to listening room characteristics (under item 2) with the thoughts you expressed regarding equipment, under item 3. In other words the overall combination of room acoustics and equipment should be as neutral as possible, to make the listening experience as "you are there" as possible.

Best regards,
-- Al

1. As much as Lowell Thomas and later, Walter Cronkite were big proponents of the "you are there" news reel and then TV show... I'm more into having the entertainers standing in front of me... saves on parking, trip times, traffic, gas, etc.

It also makes for easier virtual autograph getting!

2. It's the recording! That is of course once the level of equipment is up to snuff.

Al, I think your comments make a lot of sense. However how do you think this plays out for folks who want to use horn, panel, or line speakers? For example I've heard some folks say that some horn speakers can be 'forward' compared to well designed cone/box speakers, etc.

Because of this I tend to agree with Ballan. IMHO the degree that recordings are forward or accurate (or backward :-)) has far more to do with the practices of the recording engineer than the natural acoustics of the hall, the recording studio or the home environment. Pushing a few sliders around can change everything including the relationship between direct and reverberant sounds and usually does.

Hi Newbee,

Interesting questions.

My understanding has been that "forward" vs. "backward" is essentially a different issue than "they are here" vs. "you are there."

My understanding has been that "forward" and "backward" are primarily matters of emphasis or de-emphasis of mid-range frequencies, relative to highs and lows. That is why in the old days mid-range tone controls were commonly labeled "presence" controls.

While "they are here" vs. "you are there" is primarily a matter, as Bryon indicated, of the proportion of direct vs. reflected sound, which brings time relationships (as opposed to frequency response) heavily into play.

Therefore I agree with the ideas that have been expressed about mic placement and mic characteristics. Those factors, and their relationship to the hall size and its acoustic characteristics, would figure to be the key factors in how realistically hall ambience is reproduced. Assuming, that is, that subsequent processing is not overdone to the point of messing up what the mics have captured.

Best regards,
-- Al

Hi Al. Thanks for your comments. Some thoughts…

The one exception I would take concerns item no. 2. I doubt that it is typically possible for the acoustics of the listening room to resemble those of the recording space in any meaningful way (assuming the recording space is a hall), because the dimensions (and hence the delay times between direct and reflected sound) are so vastly different.

To a large extent, I agree with this. Item (2) - the idea that resemblance between the listening room and the recording space enhances the illusion that “you are there” - was intended to describe a correlation that is largely theoretical. In the real world, the listening room rarely resembles the recording space, except in a very approximate way. As you point out, this is especially true for certain kinds of recording spaces, such a halls.

Having said that, I would stop short of concluding that it is impossible for the listening room to resemble the recording space “in any meaningful way.” It seems to me that sometimes the listening room can resemble the recording space in a meaningful way, in the sense that there are characteristics of the listening room that, to the extent that they approximate the recording space, will contribute to the illusion that “you are there.” For example…

Imagine for the moment that your preference in classical music were confined to orchestral music. In that case, I believe that you would be more likely to create the illusion that “you are there” with a large listening room with a high level of diffusion and a medium to long-ish reverberation time. In contrast, Cbw723’s preference for “studio-recorded material” would be better served with a medium or small sized listening room with plenty of absorption and a comparatively short reverberation time ("acoustically dead," as he describes it). In either case, the resemblance of the listening room to the recording space is only a very rough approximation. But it seems to me that it is a meaningful approximation, in the sense that it will contribute to the illusion that “you are there.”

Of course, all this assumes that the system is playing back recordings with similar recording spaces. In reality, most people listen to a wide range of recordings with vastly different recording spaces. Because of that, I completely agree with your view that, for the audiophile who listens to a wide range of music...

…the overall combination of room acoustics and equipment should be as neutral as possible, to make the listening experience as "you are there" as possible.

My view is that...

1. If an audiophile listens predominantly to one type of music, he should design his listening room (when possible) to approximate the typical characteristics of the recording spaces for that type of music, so as to promote the illusion that "he is there" for the music he usually listens to.

However...

2. If an audiophile listens to a wide range of music, he should design his listening room (when possible) to be neutral, so as to promote the illusion that "he is there" for as many kinds of recording spaces as possible, acknowledging that the more neutral the room, the less likely it is to approximate the recording space of any particular type of music.