A true believer

OK, you true believers; I am impressed by your self-control. You are better men than I. I can't control myself.

***Wire can, in some systems, make small improvements***

No, wire in any and ALL systems, can make small improvements. In some systems it can make very large improvements. There isn't a system that can't benefit, to some degree, by the right choice of wire. The better the system, the more obvious the wire's contribution becomes, and the more potential for improvement.

***But, never the claims you read***

Are you kidding me? "NEVER"? In my experience, the change for the positive that the right cable choice has made, as measured by what is important to me, can be more than what is claimed.

***and most cables don't make the slightest improvement over what you can get at radio shack***

Now you really are kidding; right? So, given that there are so many different cable brands used by so many of the experienced audiophiles on this site, we can extrapolate that most of them are gullible fools. Is that what you are suggesting?

There is no question that there is a lot of bs in the cable industry. No-one knows that better than the good cable manufacturers who make a good product. My ears tell me that good cable choices are just as important as any other choice in assembling a good system. That choice may be a very inexpensive one, determined in part by what sound you are after.

After a lot of years playing around with this stuff, I have come to the conclusion (and I don't mean to offend anyone) that those who diminish the importance of good cable choices are either not experienced enough as listeners, have some limitation (perhaps governed by some sort of bias) in their hearing, or have systems that are not revealing enough to make differences in cables very obvious.

Frogman, thank you. I am one of those experienced audiophiles that have formed a preference for certain cables in my system. Formed by comparing several brands, some common, some exotic and expensive, while trying to help a friend decide what he should carry in his store.

"Now you really are kidding; right? So, given that there are so many different cable brands used by so many of the experienced audiophiles on this site, we can extrapolate that most of them are gullible fools. Is that what you are suggesting?"

Nope, not kidding. Most make zero audible or measurable by any means difference in any systems. Some do, always slight but worthwhile if you are trying to get that last ounce of performance. My bias came after listening and not being afraid of the truth. In regards to the fools remark, yup, we are.

If you think that you can add cables that cost 3 times the amount of the system and get a better improvement than "upgrading" the system with the money to achieve a more satisfying sound, then have at it. Personally I think that the argument that you like what you have and am willing to spend that much to improve what you have is pretty weak. If it was true what is it that your improving. Exactly what it sounds like but more......more what?

If you are adding money to a system that equals or costs more than the system in tweaks and cables, then you obviously are not happy with the way it sounds.

Agaffer, this subject has been beaten to death so many times that it is not even funny. I am not about to engage in a protracted debate about this; I think I have made my opinions fairly clear. For the record, re your commnent:

***If you think that you can add cables that cost 3 times the amount of the system and get a better improvement than "upgrading" the system with the money to achieve a more satisfying sound, then have at it.***

I never said that, and that is not what I am debating.

In then end, there is seldom agreement. The generous, PC response might be: "to each his own", or "we will have to agree to disagree". I am not feeling particularly PC today, so my honest response has to be: I can hear it, it's important to me; you can't hear it.

Peace. And as someone we all know and love likes to say:

"Regards, and enjoy the music"

Frogman, you don't list your equipment so, I don't know if you have tried this. There is what we like to call "grunge" in the electricity that comes to our homes.

It can be audible in some systems. There is a way to remove it that is based on sound engineering and is used by many industries that have very sensitive electronics, much more sensitive than our audio equipment.

Isolation transformer. It isn't sexy, there are no led lights and it most likely needs to be put in a place where you can't see or hear it. Yes, they make noise, they don't transmit noise but they hum. And, they work.

I might be wrong but, I doubt if any of the expensive electronic power conditioners that audiophiles like find their way into places that need absolutely "clean" power.

Stereo Review proved years ago, that NO so-called golden ear could tell the difference between stereo amplifiers. I think the two used in the test was a multi thousand dollar Krell and a $129 Pioneer receiver from walmart. If you can't hear the differences in amps how,pray tell, can you hear wire. But, if you can, there is some guy offering one million dollars to anyone that can hear wire. One of the gurus at stereophile accepted the challenge but then backed out. He could ended this debate forever!!! what a missed oppourtunity!!. :) anyone need an extra Million??