I can't get no satisfaction ...... smile

Thanks Tom,

***As far as sources go I've owed and heard many of both digital and analog and think I'm safe in saying neither one is superior in every way .****

I think i agree with you there.Do you say that from the perspective of how easy they are to use? Or strictly from a sonic perspective?

Each audiophile has different needs and different expectations and to varying degrees. So, when some have reached a certain level of playback they are satisfied and their done. And i say this this with mostly digital in mind.

My experience has been that digital is easier to work with. And right now i'm strictly talking about sonics. With digital its easier to get 92 percent of the sonic envelope right 95 percent of the time but then you are stuck at the level and cant go up any higher because of the format.But most will probably be content at this level because you're getting most of the music and getting it consistently at that level. You just cue up the digital and press play.

***As far as sources go I've owed and heard many of both digital and analog and think I'm safe in saying neither one is superior in every way .****

Because my first audiophile value is timbre i go with vinyl. My bias is that in this respect vinyl has a much higher potential to BE superior, though because of the nature of its requirements to be played back optimally it often fails to live up to its potential more so than digital. If you work really hard at getting the best digital and really hard at getting the best vinyl, i think you will get better sound from the vinyl.

Someone once said..."the easiest thing to do in the world is to play a record wrong!"

I laugh at that mostly because of all the effort and frustration i've experienced as i try to learn the art of playing back a record at high levels. Its a long road and there are many fine adjustments that can change one or the other parameter when you play a record back. But the quote is so true and for some all the work isnt worth it.

I can play back my whole record collection as is and enjoy the music of every record but when i put on my "extreme audio hat" and i am striving for the best possible tonal richness and dynamics , to my mind i necessarily must go to vinyl for that. I just havent been pursuaded that digital can produce the kind of timbre that vinyl can.

I believe that a combination of the best thought out component designs, a deep understanding of set up, a critical look at materials utilized, will yield that goal of the highest level of tonal richness and dynamics in playback.

By this i believe i'm staying on and persevering for that last 8 percent that i believe to be only available from the format of vinyl. That last bit is where i believe the music lives. A harmonica is a melancholy instrument. It has a lonely and sad sound. But that loneliness is inherent in the materials it is made from and how they vibrate. I can't play the harmonica but i am trying to learn to play it. If i just pick any spot and blow one or two notes, i hear that loneliness in its sound, its not my playing its the materials in the instrument that create the emotion of melancholy. If i am not reproducing that in my system i'm not really going feel its emotion. Again we're talking levels and leagues. The allaerts cart was a "game changer" for me in this regard. I can hear the steel reeds as well as the synthetic comb of the harmonica. I hear its woodiness and its shiny clean metal at the same time. This produces the melancholy sound. My system nails that timbre like digital cant. All this i know will sound like just words and talk, and i didnt know til i heard it myself. But if you never heard it you wouldnt know to miss it. To use another analogy if you told me in words about your hometown i could never really know it til i visited.

I think its fair to say i get a kick out of 'extreme vinyl'.
Even though its more work, more expensive and its easier to get wrong than digital its still worth it.

If i may...here's why i think vinyl is the inherently better format from a strictly sonic evaluation.

Because the format itself is 'materials and resonance dependent' which is what real music is made from, whether its the vibrating vocal cords of a singer or the resonance of a acoustic guitar body. Both are MATERIALS resonating. So, the natural mechanical vibration of a well designed stylus has an advantage over a digital laser because it too is material and resonant dependent therefore has the potential to mimick reality better.

Because this is the case cartridge designers consider different materials and how those materials can best replicate timbres when they are deciding on a material for the cartridge body.

Anyways...i've digressed off the topic of this thread but i guess somehow its related. I say all this for the fun and pursuit of this hobby and i dont pretend to know what your system sounds like. If someone is happy then i am happy.

I own a aero prima cd player and 'the best' digital i have heard was the emm labs combo. What i mean is the emm labs is supposed to be really great digital and it was. I heard it in an unfamiliar system that had state of the art products. I didnt think its timbres were very rich like how i now know they can be. My opinion is that the timbres were somewhat greyed or bleached out and not rich,dense and compacted with timbre. It wasnt very silky. Silk is shiny, smooth and soft.

I've recently got into nirvana of all things. what a surprise. Anyways if i want a original pressing i have to pay maybe 35-55 bucks on ebay for it! Thats nuts! When i can find a used cd of the same album in a pawn shop for maybe 3 bucks? Is it worth it? I wouldnt even consider it if i didnt hear it with the allaerts and the rest of my system pulling as a team. It can make it seem like it is in fact worth it. But on a day where some parameter is slightly out it will make me have my doubts!(smiling)

The kick i get out of trying to get 'extreme playback' is why i might pay that much for a record, the pursuit of 'the best' on the planet is fun! plus if i have a change of heart i can always decide to sell it ALL and just get an ipod!

****i cant get no satisfaction****

Paradoxically, not getting any satisfaction is giving me some! As the pursuit becomes the source of the pleasure.

Hello Vertigo .. I was speaking from a pure sonic prospective . I guess we all have different sonic perimeters that we value . I value a natural , neutral tonal balance with the just the right amount of musicality and superior bass performance , I have found that in digital in a way that analog just doesn't seem to convey . Clearly a personal preference . I have spent considerable time and money getting things just right , and it wasn't until the last two components were purchased and correctly voiced that the musicians entered my music chamber and player for me personally . ( Ayre KXR preamp and Ayre C5MP used as a transport ). When I traded in my LP's for CD's I always felt I would hear an analog rig that would bring me back to vinyl , but so far that hasn't happened , I do get allot of exposure to other system's being involved in an audio club . I think easy access was one of the reason's I original wen digital only but since then , sonic's and musical pleasure is my only concern . Regards Tim

Thanks...Tmsorosk.

I think its so difficult to exhaustively describe how one systems sounds. In a way i think its futile without actually hearing the system for oneself. What i mean is that i think alot of us at best have notions of what someone elses systems sound like. We might think it would sound great but when actually listening be underwhelmed or vice versa, even with components we are familiar with since no two systems are exactly alike. This might sound absurd but like no two wines are exactly alike neither do two systems sound exactly alike. I'm glad youre enjoying your system! All i can do is is keep heading on the course i am on and see where it leads me. I'm striving for something and i want to see if i can acheive it. I very well might be wrong but for now i believe vinyl is the right path for me for reasons stated in the last post.

There are times when the "song" is more important and you couldnt care less about the fidelity. Headphones, digital, vinyl, mp3, who cares....the song is more important.

Thats partly the kind of listener i am.

what i meant to say is...

I'm striving for something SPECIAL and i want to see if i can acheive it.

What was the most "extreme" cartridge you used when you had vinyl playback? That increases the likelihood of satisfaction but doesnt guarantee it but i am curious which you had.

I would still argue vinyl is superior but i bet alot of people havent heard a well put together system, that has synergy and is set up well, no wonder people prefer digital.

I understand the appeal of digital, even as i listen to it now through heaphones, its pretty good and is so "turn key" but its that last bit that it just cant seem to pull off, that i hear on my vinyl end but not always, though i hope to perfect that so that i get it more consistently.

I havent heard every digital front end in every system so in this regard i will suspend jugdement.

I not sure what you mean by extreme Vertigo , but the cartridge I liked best was a Lyra Helikon on a Simon Yorke table . I had a bunch of different phono stages , I think the ARC 3SE was the best match . Not state of the art but not bad , this setup made most of the early digital stuff sound sterile . I no analog has come along way in the last ten years but I think digital has come even further . The price of that 8 to 10 year old rig still outweighs my currant digital setup .
Maybe you can share with us which digital player and DAC you feel , "can't pull off that last bit ".
I have several friends that spent considerable time , money and resources upgrading a turntable rig , including dedicated high end turntable stands , not to mention considerable time matching and changing other components in there system . But when it came to digital just plunked down a mid priced CD player without proper setup or matching and announced it was inferior . I think if the same time and care was taken with digital the results would surprise many . I have also found that an audio system that has been setup and voiced using an analog source won't sound right when a digital source is introduced . Regards Tim