Thanks Tom,
***As far as sources go I've owed and heard many of both digital and analog and think I'm safe in saying neither one is superior in every way .****
I think i agree with you there.Do you say that from the perspective of how easy they are to use? Or strictly from a sonic perspective?
Each audiophile has different needs and different expectations and to varying degrees. So, when some have reached a certain level of playback they are satisfied and their done. And i say this this with mostly digital in mind.
My experience has been that digital is easier to work with. And right now i'm strictly talking about sonics. With digital its easier to get 92 percent of the sonic envelope right 95 percent of the time but then you are stuck at the level and cant go up any higher because of the format.But most will probably be content at this level because you're getting most of the music and getting it consistently at that level. You just cue up the digital and press play.
***As far as sources go I've owed and heard many of both digital and analog and think I'm safe in saying neither one is superior in every way .****
Because my first audiophile value is timbre i go with vinyl. My bias is that in this respect vinyl has a much higher potential to BE superior, though because of the nature of its requirements to be played back optimally it often fails to live up to its potential more so than digital. If you work really hard at getting the best digital and really hard at getting the best vinyl, i think you will get better sound from the vinyl.
Someone once said..."the easiest thing to do in the world is to play a record wrong!"
I laugh at that mostly because of all the effort and frustration i've experienced as i try to learn the art of playing back a record at high levels. Its a long road and there are many fine adjustments that can change one or the other parameter when you play a record back. But the quote is so true and for some all the work isnt worth it.
I can play back my whole record collection as is and enjoy the music of every record but when i put on my "extreme audio hat" and i am striving for the best possible tonal richness and dynamics , to my mind i necessarily must go to vinyl for that. I just havent been pursuaded that digital can produce the kind of timbre that vinyl can.
I believe that a combination of the best thought out component designs, a deep understanding of set up, a critical look at materials utilized, will yield that goal of the highest level of tonal richness and dynamics in playback.
By this i believe i'm staying on and persevering for that last 8 percent that i believe to be only available from the format of vinyl. That last bit is where i believe the music lives. A harmonica is a melancholy instrument. It has a lonely and sad sound. But that loneliness is inherent in the materials it is made from and how they vibrate. I can't play the harmonica but i am trying to learn to play it. If i just pick any spot and blow one or two notes, i hear that loneliness in its sound, its not my playing its the materials in the instrument that create the emotion of melancholy. If i am not reproducing that in my system i'm not really going feel its emotion. Again we're talking levels and leagues. The allaerts cart was a "game changer" for me in this regard. I can hear the steel reeds as well as the synthetic comb of the harmonica. I hear its woodiness and its shiny clean metal at the same time. This produces the melancholy sound. My system nails that timbre like digital cant. All this i know will sound like just words and talk, and i didnt know til i heard it myself. But if you never heard it you wouldnt know to miss it. To use another analogy if you told me in words about your hometown i could never really know it til i visited.
I think its fair to say i get a kick out of 'extreme vinyl'.
Even though its more work, more expensive and its easier to get wrong than digital its still worth it.
If i may...here's why i think vinyl is the inherently better format from a strictly sonic evaluation.
Because the format itself is 'materials and resonance dependent' which is what real music is made from, whether its the vibrating vocal cords of a singer or the resonance of a acoustic guitar body. Both are MATERIALS resonating. So, the natural mechanical vibration of a well designed stylus has an advantage over a digital laser because it too is material and resonant dependent therefore has the potential to mimick reality better.
Because this is the case cartridge designers consider different materials and how those materials can best replicate timbres when they are deciding on a material for the cartridge body.
Anyways...i've digressed off the topic of this thread but i guess somehow its related. I say all this for the fun and pursuit of this hobby and i dont pretend to know what your system sounds like. If someone is happy then i am happy.
I own a aero prima cd player and 'the best' digital i have heard was the emm labs combo. What i mean is the emm labs is supposed to be really great digital and it was. I heard it in an unfamiliar system that had state of the art products. I didnt think its timbres were very rich like how i now know they can be. My opinion is that the timbres were somewhat greyed or bleached out and not rich,dense and compacted with timbre. It wasnt very silky. Silk is shiny, smooth and soft.
I've recently got into nirvana of all things. what a surprise. Anyways if i want a original pressing i have to pay maybe 35-55 bucks on ebay for it! Thats nuts! When i can find a used cd of the same album in a pawn shop for maybe 3 bucks? Is it worth it? I wouldnt even consider it if i didnt hear it with the allaerts and the rest of my system pulling as a team. It can make it seem like it is in fact worth it. But on a day where some parameter is slightly out it will make me have my doubts!(smiling)
The kick i get out of trying to get 'extreme playback' is why i might pay that much for a record, the pursuit of 'the best' on the planet is fun! plus if i have a change of heart i can always decide to sell it ALL and just get an ipod!
****i cant get no satisfaction****
Paradoxically, not getting any satisfaction is giving me some! As the pursuit becomes the source of the pleasure.
***As far as sources go I've owed and heard many of both digital and analog and think I'm safe in saying neither one is superior in every way .****
I think i agree with you there.Do you say that from the perspective of how easy they are to use? Or strictly from a sonic perspective?
Each audiophile has different needs and different expectations and to varying degrees. So, when some have reached a certain level of playback they are satisfied and their done. And i say this this with mostly digital in mind.
My experience has been that digital is easier to work with. And right now i'm strictly talking about sonics. With digital its easier to get 92 percent of the sonic envelope right 95 percent of the time but then you are stuck at the level and cant go up any higher because of the format.But most will probably be content at this level because you're getting most of the music and getting it consistently at that level. You just cue up the digital and press play.
***As far as sources go I've owed and heard many of both digital and analog and think I'm safe in saying neither one is superior in every way .****
Because my first audiophile value is timbre i go with vinyl. My bias is that in this respect vinyl has a much higher potential to BE superior, though because of the nature of its requirements to be played back optimally it often fails to live up to its potential more so than digital. If you work really hard at getting the best digital and really hard at getting the best vinyl, i think you will get better sound from the vinyl.
Someone once said..."the easiest thing to do in the world is to play a record wrong!"
I laugh at that mostly because of all the effort and frustration i've experienced as i try to learn the art of playing back a record at high levels. Its a long road and there are many fine adjustments that can change one or the other parameter when you play a record back. But the quote is so true and for some all the work isnt worth it.
I can play back my whole record collection as is and enjoy the music of every record but when i put on my "extreme audio hat" and i am striving for the best possible tonal richness and dynamics , to my mind i necessarily must go to vinyl for that. I just havent been pursuaded that digital can produce the kind of timbre that vinyl can.
I believe that a combination of the best thought out component designs, a deep understanding of set up, a critical look at materials utilized, will yield that goal of the highest level of tonal richness and dynamics in playback.
By this i believe i'm staying on and persevering for that last 8 percent that i believe to be only available from the format of vinyl. That last bit is where i believe the music lives. A harmonica is a melancholy instrument. It has a lonely and sad sound. But that loneliness is inherent in the materials it is made from and how they vibrate. I can't play the harmonica but i am trying to learn to play it. If i just pick any spot and blow one or two notes, i hear that loneliness in its sound, its not my playing its the materials in the instrument that create the emotion of melancholy. If i am not reproducing that in my system i'm not really going feel its emotion. Again we're talking levels and leagues. The allaerts cart was a "game changer" for me in this regard. I can hear the steel reeds as well as the synthetic comb of the harmonica. I hear its woodiness and its shiny clean metal at the same time. This produces the melancholy sound. My system nails that timbre like digital cant. All this i know will sound like just words and talk, and i didnt know til i heard it myself. But if you never heard it you wouldnt know to miss it. To use another analogy if you told me in words about your hometown i could never really know it til i visited.
I think its fair to say i get a kick out of 'extreme vinyl'.
Even though its more work, more expensive and its easier to get wrong than digital its still worth it.
If i may...here's why i think vinyl is the inherently better format from a strictly sonic evaluation.
Because the format itself is 'materials and resonance dependent' which is what real music is made from, whether its the vibrating vocal cords of a singer or the resonance of a acoustic guitar body. Both are MATERIALS resonating. So, the natural mechanical vibration of a well designed stylus has an advantage over a digital laser because it too is material and resonant dependent therefore has the potential to mimick reality better.
Because this is the case cartridge designers consider different materials and how those materials can best replicate timbres when they are deciding on a material for the cartridge body.
Anyways...i've digressed off the topic of this thread but i guess somehow its related. I say all this for the fun and pursuit of this hobby and i dont pretend to know what your system sounds like. If someone is happy then i am happy.
I own a aero prima cd player and 'the best' digital i have heard was the emm labs combo. What i mean is the emm labs is supposed to be really great digital and it was. I heard it in an unfamiliar system that had state of the art products. I didnt think its timbres were very rich like how i now know they can be. My opinion is that the timbres were somewhat greyed or bleached out and not rich,dense and compacted with timbre. It wasnt very silky. Silk is shiny, smooth and soft.
I've recently got into nirvana of all things. what a surprise. Anyways if i want a original pressing i have to pay maybe 35-55 bucks on ebay for it! Thats nuts! When i can find a used cd of the same album in a pawn shop for maybe 3 bucks? Is it worth it? I wouldnt even consider it if i didnt hear it with the allaerts and the rest of my system pulling as a team. It can make it seem like it is in fact worth it. But on a day where some parameter is slightly out it will make me have my doubts!(smiling)
The kick i get out of trying to get 'extreme playback' is why i might pay that much for a record, the pursuit of 'the best' on the planet is fun! plus if i have a change of heart i can always decide to sell it ALL and just get an ipod!
****i cant get no satisfaction****
Paradoxically, not getting any satisfaction is giving me some! As the pursuit becomes the source of the pleasure.