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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
undertow
1,033 posts
 
Well now we are getting silly, I agree CAP PHYSICAL size HAS ZERO to do with performance.. Reason a Mundorf may be more dynamic is it is in fact 2 caps in one, and run to be like almost a cancelling type device... And they are in series inside the cap housing which might be what adds to the slight Harmonic excess, and the slightly "Higher" efficiency that many claim to hear that cap has, which in turn enhances the dynamics..

The Duelunds are a different animal and layed out completly in a different geometry and probably the characteristics is similar to the same effect the mundorfs have on the sound.

As for sonicaps, well my opinion they are a cheap cap, and yes are a bit flat, not a ton of detailed information nor are they 3d or spacial masters by any means, however they are of a more conventional design than either the mundorf or duelund, and they are simply of different materials as well.. NOTHING EXOTIC is used in the Sonicap, the others are totally off the standard path of capacitor materials with much higher degree of quality type tolerance and approach..

But I totally agree Physical SIZE wars has nothing to do with it and is totally ridiculous... Zero correlation to do with what is going on here.. There are smaller caps that can sound as good, and also as bad, difference is the bigger caps have higher voltage ratings because then the dielectric is thicker and will not melt, this could be worse for some designs who knows?

And Dulunds are only so large due to the geometry, They are not nearly as thick as a round cap however.
undertow
1,033 posts
 
Actually I know for a fact a sonicap does not sound as good as either of the 2 other caps here, so thats not the point, However it would be interesting to see taking the 2 smaller caps of smaller value, be it Sonicap or whoever and "BAttery" them together for example 2 sonicap 1 uF caps to equal a total of 2 uF, and I can tell you this, I have actually heard it, and it was in tube amps, this was as dynamic as a single mundorf which would have 2 (4uF) caps inside doing essentially the same job as the "Batteried" sonicaps... However still the mundorfs use higher grade materials, in the end will sound more liquid, less dry etc... With probably a little more organic bass and dynamic contrasts...

So in order to make all things equal if you wish to compare PHYSICAL size parameters in this case, you would Need 2 SONICAPS which will be DOUBLE the size you are now talking about and it would be VERY close in physical size to the mundorf which has DUAL capacitors in ONE single housing.. They are totally different caps, and totally different sizes, but not because of what you think or see.
undertow
1,033 posts
 
To put the theory to rest, I just looked up and converted BOTH the sonicap size of 2 20 uF caps or a Single Mundorf 10 uF cap which is 2 20 uF caps in one body and guess what, Identical SIZE TO THE 'T' !!!

Sonicap Gen 1 20 uF 1.41" x 2.02" multiply x 2 = 1.41" x 4.04" long

Mundorf 10 uF supreme cap 1.42" x 4.2" long

So if Sonicap was to construct an identical cap as the mundorf as they already make, this should debunk the size theory... Sonicap does not construct DUAL caps in series in one housing, mundorf does, but they are identical in size with this config... Again I will not argue sonicaps are good, I can care less, but it has nothing to do with size... And if it does, essentially you should get nearly equal dynamics using DUAL sonicaps than for making up a single value, which in fact I accidentally heard due to a tube amp manufacture I have first hand experience has done, and it was excellent and VERY close to the performance replacing them with a single better brand cap of the same physical size.. which happend to be a mundorf with exactly double the capacitors built inside one unit etc..
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
13,108 posts
 
Dear Volleyguy: With all my respect to you and for what you already posted ( caps's size, a higher price cap is better, parallel/series caps, no breacking time to the caps, caps combinations, inductors, taking the Tempo people like a reference, etc, etc )it is clear to me that you are a " Rockie " about caps inductors and speaker voicing.

What is a surprise to me is that with all that non-know how about suddenly you are an expert and give advise about to other Agoner's in many ways ( example ): +++++ This is something for all to consider when replacing caps make sure you get as big (dynamic) cap as before .... " +++++

IMHO in all what you are posted the only coherent statement is:
**** The Sonicaps to me are nuetral so the flaws only become apparent on direct comparison *******

You really don't know those " flaws " because for what you already posted you don't have any reference but other caps that maybe are the ones that has the " flaws ".

Undertow posted: +++++ As for sonicaps, well my opinion they are a cheap cap, and yes are a bit flat *******

he say is a bit flat and you that it is neutral, well IMHO both characteristics are highly desirous in any cap reagrdless of price ( the price means nothing about the quality performance in a cap. ).

From my experiences and the other people experiences the Mundorf are not a neutral-flat cap ( either the Duelund in lower level ) it adds colorations/distortions ( like the ones that you are hearing: dynamics, a false dynamics I have to say ).
Why don't like you the neutral-flat Sonicaps? well because show you the whole quality limitations in your system that for what you report about is not of a very high quality performance ( between other things the Scala's are not up to the task. ).

Why many people does not like a flat response in their audio systems? why they like the colored ( heavy colored/distorted ) system performance? because with a neutral-flat system only the good audio items designs can give them a pleasure and enjoying music, poor or mediocre designs ( everywhere in the audio chain ) show immediatly its " cooper " and IMHO that's what is happening to you.

The Sonicaps IMHO are a lot better of what you are reporting and more " honest " than the Mundorf or Duelunds.

This is what Atmasphere posted about caps of the same type like the MUN/DUEL that I agree about:

+++++ Paper and oil is nice, but in nearly all of them there is a slightly shelved high frequency character (mind you- not a rolloff) that causes them to have an overly delicate character. Nice for a lot of things but annoying if you play the complete range of music on your system. " +++++

+++++ Certainly they are more detailed than paper and oils with considerably more neutrality. Paper and Oil caps can develop electrical leakage over time that can damage other parts- +++++

both statements comes from someone that really knows what is talking about.

It is clear for me that your whole system ( through the Scalas ) are in trouble about quality performance and the Mundorf-Duelunds not only hide it but make heavier.

Of course, like I posted in my first post, that you like a colored/distorted performance nothing wrong with that but please don't give advise that a colored/distorted cap is a better choice than a neutral one.

IMHO any cap must be designed to add nothing and to be dead neutral as the materials permit it ( nothing is perfect ) and not to design caps with a precise signature performance ( colorations added ) like the Mundorfs-Duelunds that are frequency/performance manipulated on purpose.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Sorry guys late and off to bed.
I will answer comments tomorrow.

All I was saying is the Mundorf is much bigger has much more dynamics than Sonicap and is well worth the money difference. (for this kind of application in my opinion)
from Mundorf

"Special induction-free winding technology: Two capacitor windings are interleaved so that their inductances effectively cancel each other out. These two windings are connected in series. This means that it takes two 2µF windings to make a single 1µF MCap-Supreme capacitor - the same amount that it would take to produce a full 4µF of capacity using conventional technology"!

I wish I heard that from former Klipsch owners. I am no cap expert but have owned these speakers for 30 years so I do know what they sound like and can say a Sonicap is a for sure downgrade from original. (if I would have read that from a 30 year owner who has nothing to sell)

When I started this (I was and still am no cap expert or claim to be) I was told by so much I read (on the net) it would be easy to replace the vintage caps as they were not very good compared to modern caps. I have found this simply to NOT be true. Yes there are better caps out today. (Duelund for sure) I'll I am saying is if Sonicap is the best bang for the buck cap one might start to think about spending more than you think.

I hope one reads this in the future and says to themselves Ok $3500 (for last pair of Khorns same year on ebay selling price) that it might cost them more than they think to bring the speakers back to spec.

A quote from Steen Duelund
"From the great variety of types - stick to stack foils or variations on that theme if you can find them without plastics. The good old Micas works wonderfully well but they are far too expensive for greater values. Go for older types following the simple rule that bigger is better. A good sounding construction will be introduced from Jensen Capacitor in the near future". (An artificial stack foil, which regrettably only can be manufactured by hand for now.)

Steen likes caps "without plastics". (can't argue there) Older type caps. (can't argue there) Bigger is better. (can't argue there)

I am just saying I think the man is/was on to something and something BIG! (no plastic may be the key!)

Tony Gee said how his caps made things sound so real and super natural.
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