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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
undertow
1,033 posts
 
Volleyguy
First off I would be shocked if your tweeter inductor is 18 gauge, probably not and its most likely a 20 gauge in that speaker.

Second you are way to concerned in the case of the inductors.. In the tweeter it should be in the circuit parallel... 16 gauge standard magnet wire types should be excellent, even 14 gauge, and you can get silly with getting solen perfect lays or erse which both are overkill and cost more than you need at about 20 bucks an inductor..

You can also get the copper ribbon Alpha core inductors in both 16 gauge and 14 gauge as well.. or even 12 gauge which would be pointless in your application.

The capacitor is far more what will do the most in your tweeter, and fact being you can probably switch between your old inductor and a new one and barely if at all tell the difference..

Your Woofer is a totally different story, you could put a duelund or a mundorf cheap M-cap or superior and the biggest difference will come from your inductor being in series in there, which the bigger the better, I suggest the copper ribbon from goertz. You want to go to duelund well thats your choice, however as for resistors.. I have now tested the Mundorf resistors, and the Mills top ones, the Mills are very good, the mundorfs a even bigger and cheaper, which do the same job.. From reading the Duelunds being silver and the graphite really is not a better resistor but much more "Bright" sounding material from the reviews I have found, and many have backed up and actually removed the duelunds due to the silver probably being the culprite in most tweeter circuits especically horns putting them a bit too much.

This is all in the Shades of Grey area my friend, and with your speaker being a basic horn from klipsch, I would not get into overly exotic resistors and inductors you will guaranteed not get anything but the point of diminishing returns spending another 100 bucks or something over getting the very premium mundorf resistors or mills, with good copper standard inductors.. Wax paper, poly, or PLATINUM coated is the last of your concern, you will just need exact value inductors for the most benefit, and again a 16 gauge on the tweeter with magnet wire or ribbon will be the same as anything else almost guaranteed, I have tried them trust me.. As for the woofer again thats where you want the money in the inductor in my experience.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Thanks Undertow.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Thanks Undertow

I have had a chance to read your comments more now as we were out for the evening. You are right the tweeter inductor is in series. Even when talking to Chris at partsconnextion before he did not think parellal to be a very big deal. So I am getting nothing there.

Now back to the woofer inductor.

Is a Alpha Core at 12 guage air core better than the vintage Iron Core which is likely wrapped in waxed paper?
What weighs more heavy the thicker guage Alpha Air core with poly coating or the thinner guage with Iron and but no poly?

Undertow I expect the 12 gauge Alpha to be better than other smaller guage poly inductors but have you compared with waxed paper inductors? (even the vintage ones)

Excuse me for not sounding confident in the new products but these 30 year old vintage foil caps are kicking the crap out of one of the best Poly caps out there. I am concerned as to why? and it is not small differnence!

I am concerned with other brands of inductors. (other than Duelund) I sure do not want to spend anything on a part that is not better!

Is a 12 guage Alpha better than what I have? It has slightly lower resistance. But not much. .29ohms vintage and .23 for 12 guage Alpha.

Are inductors not sometimes 300ft long? Isn't 300ft of wire covered in poly a not good? I am sure the woofer circuit though is not as important as the tweeter being messed up by poly. (or in my case the mid range)

I am not going to try this one. If I get an inductor it will be Duelund or stick with the waxed paper vintage.

If the Mundorf Supreme is $120 for the mid range a speaker caps then the vintage should be worth $250 easy! I am running the system 24/7 on repeat to pile on the hours.
undertow
1,033 posts
 
"Is a Alpha Core at 12 guage air core better than the vintage Iron Core which is likely wrapped in waxed paper?"

You are definitely mixing priorities up here.. First off guaranteed that a 12 gauge copper foil will probably trounce the wax 18 gauge or whatever it is in your woofer circuit from 1970... Caps, well Caps are in a different world over how an inductor might or might not sound.. Caps are a material that can effect the signal more, an inductor of a good copper material with tight tolerance value will work well from just about any manufacturer, and in the case of the woofer I truly believe its more about how thick you can go, in otherwords a 12 gauge etc... will get you better, tighter, cleaner, and even faster low frequencies in my opinion.. Not once has a good inductor shown a problem in a woofer.. Its all about the exact right value.. By the way alpha core in connecticut I think they are still in that state will sell you a single pair of exact custom value direct if its not on the shelf with other distributors, and they do not charge any kinda premium for them.. I will admit this, the Alpha cores are not as good in my opinion on hi frequencies or midranges necessarily, but the best I have heard on woofer circuits demanding high power copper conduction, and have used them with several klipsch speakers with un-real results, but your running a vintage pro driver that barely moves I believe with tight surround, so its hard to gauge how well or not it will increase your response on that driver, but I know it will work excellent..

And by the way this "Poly Plastic" sound you are supposedly pinpointing really should not show in any woofer really, your hearing it up in the mid probably 1000 hz and higher giving you a more compressed sound, this will not occur in your woofer, your over thinking it trust me.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Excuse me Undertow I meant to say of course the tweeter caps are in parallel.

Undertow have you done that test on inductors?
Waxed paper ones vs. poly covered ones?
or anyone?

Undertow a copy of Stereophile's article on the Fisher 500c. I am going to say likely most any vintage piece to different degrees. The vintage foil caps is SMOKING what Tempo Electric (Mundorf Supreme) says is the second best cap. I think all those dead guys with ears are great but most likely it is because they did not have poly caps then. Everyone used natural stuff because that is what they had.

That is why I think only the Duelund will be an improvement. My bigget fear is I would spend a lot (on an inductor) and not even notice it. (I hope I do!) My wife when she heard the Sonicap vs. vintage thought the Sonicaps were BROKEN! She could not believe the difference and had no idea which caps were in either speaker. Undertow I am not a vintage guy and my main stereo is as new as 2004 pre-amp and all what is known as "high end" and this is what I have found

1. Vintage int tube (smokes new big $ SS pre and amp)
2. Vintage speakers (smokes the '90's higher end new stuff)
3. Vintage foil cap (in the mid range) smokes high end poly caps.

Stereophile quote
"Forget everything you've read or imagined over the past 20 years—vintage gear does not necessarily sound rolled-off, soft and woolly, or fuzzy. This stuff is as far from windup Victrola sound as HDTV is from 1950s black-and-white TV. It is serious high-end audio, and offers a bouquet of endless multilayered soundscapes, pinpoint and holographic images, startling frequency response, and exceptional pace, rhythm, and drive. It's what we look for in our hobby, and it's been here all along. I've invested many years chasing the best cutting-edge gear our industry offers, yet I've never been more satisfied with music and audio since finding a home in yesteryear with all those dead guys with ears".

What is the reason?
I think it is modern plastic cheap manufacturing yes but does horrible things to the sound.
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