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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
undertow
1,033 posts
 
I think you mis understood the comment... Point being the caps you are using in a crossover are only handling each portion separatley, in otherwords you are using a cap to feed each driver which is only producing a very limited range of audio response. Use a cap in an amp or preamp etc.. And it is feeding the entire range at all times.

\Your dividing up the bands and thats the point of a crossover in the first place. Again simply illustrating there might be a true point of diminishing returns here, using your mundorf on a woofer alone for example will probably perform nearly identical to a CAst or any other in most speakers.. The cast would show more of its performance optimaly on a mid or tweeter alone so to speak.

And in a full range application literally output caps directly in a signal of the electronics exhibit much more of what a cap is capable in with my experience.. Much why many like to use these V-caps and other teflons as they have a bit higher power handling and complete frequency spectrums.. Again in a loudspeaker even these guys testing only used and state that mundorf or duelund was tested in loudspeaker application only for example, mainly because they are too large in size and or just not really designated to be electronic device caps, Although the mundorfs have very high voltage ratings, and thats fine. I have used Mundorfs top caps in electronics, it was much better suited in the crossover, however the clarity MR's and Jantzen superiors are much better in these applications for instance of electronics.
undertow
1,033 posts
 
By the way I think you are very wrong in that I don't believe in the importance of the crossover caps, I have spent more time and money on speakers and caps than some have on the systems my self in the past!! I just learned there is a certain approach and variables to look at meaning one cap being good universally is very hard to find all the time.. And only reason as a universal cap for the money the MR's are the best yet in this realm my opinion… You are going on a one time experience in just getting a more echo and not really considered refined sounding horn in the first place to calm down and spread out, nothing to much of a miracle did you find here(no offense)…

You have spent a lot on caps an a very short time and limited application so what you hear is probably correct, but by no means the best and most efficient method for every situation, so I simply offered a little more logical and more or less true approach to see what is truly necessary or effective for the purpose at hand. You choose to not chance it and spend much more than necessary to be done and never have a question you have the best of the best, that’s fine, just suggesting for those where money cannot be spent and they really want to have a solid approach to this, its not always the answer to believe the best has to be all one thing, there is a balance, and it can be obtained without going as far as the combo of using only the like second most expensive capacitor in the world on a 500 dollar pair of speakers. Although I admit I hear what you do in that I would many times now believe a 500 dollar pair of speakers with the best crossover available can beat the pants off a speaker in the 5000 or 10,000 range with a 2 dollar Solen cap in it.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Well Undertow you could be right and I think you are as that is why I backed away from buying Duelund CAST inductors. Yes even Chris at partsconnextion thinks the tweeter cap being the most important. (and hardest to get right)

The Klipsch of course use and inductor and not a cap for the woofer. I was allowed to add to my Duelund order as it was open before the price increase which was good but allowed a one shot only order. I would have ordered a CAST tweeter cap to hear the difference if that was not the case. You may be right about dimishing returns. I will say the returns are NOT dimished by VSF at least in an no poly system.

You are right about the full range of caps in the system but I (think) are missing by far the biggest point and that is that crossover parts are only powered by the signal. This makes them MUCH more sensitive as they use the signal to power themselves. The "full" range caps in the amp are of course powered by the electricity in the socket and not the signal. This is why both Linn and Steen Duelund believe the crossover will ALWAYS be the weak link of ANY system.

All I was saying is the Duelund is specatular in a foil based system but even ONE plastic cap in the crossover degrades there value in my mind. My reference is still vintage foil cap in the midrange vintage tube amp and Duelund in the tweeter cap. It may switch to CAST in the midrange and (I hope) it does after they are installed.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Undertow I can understand your non belief in the importance of a crossover cap as I admit ONE poly cap in the crossover and all is lost! I do not know why. (I can guess)

I would not say a "one time" base of less echo. The Duelund do much more than that.

No offense taken on the miracle cure with Duelund caps. Although the tweeters caps were the best (new) money I ever spent.

Undertow I did even say I only think the full effect of the Duelund only really shines in a fully non poly system. The Duleund was based on previous prices to me and I do not think I am going crazy as all the other options have proven to be let downs. (not hearing clarity caps) I do not think of Audio as a job of just being "good enough". I fully do admit and said if saving money was an object the vintage foil cap is very good (paired with the Duelund tweeter cap) and of course is free as I already owned it. You are right that these are not valuable speakers. No arguement here. ($500 is a little cheap as the last set sold on e-bay for $3k of similiar vintage) I will say with the vintage foil/Duelund they blow away my Linn speakers by a mile! I just hope the CAST is as good as I hope.

It is nice to hear we are in agreement of the importantance of the crossover allowing a much cheaper speaker to beat the pants off an expensive one if it has good parts. Before this I admit I would have doubted the importantance of the crossover. I just can not afford to try Clarity. I love the sound of Duelund so my only dilema was VSF or CAST. Duelund was bang on what I was looking for. Clarity might be great I do not know. I can just sayall the polys I tried I do not like and even vintage foil was better leading me to cut the chase and stay with foil. Now I hope they just get here soon!
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Last couple of days digital on SS and all Mundorf. YUCK! I now see why I went back to vinyl. That just makes it much more tolerable. Tomorrow back to foil caps and SS and vinyl for one more try. Until I got the vintage tube amp I thought my CD player sucked! I was going to sell it. I thought vinyl was the only thing to listen too.

Does anyone want some Mundorf caps? As soon as I get the Duelund I will do one last compare and then sell off the Mundorf. The biggest comparison for the Duelund will be to better the vintage, which is still the best in the midrange.

Just PM me. This will make an affordable try for anyone. If not they are going on e-bay. Values are Mundorf Supreme 2.2uf, 10uf, 3.3uf and a Mundorf Silver in Oil at 2.2uf.

I have a friend coming by with a vintage SET amp and a few others once the caps are in. He wants to hear for his Khorns as well.
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