2. speakers
  3. 1211428524

Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Duelund

I am not sure? Very thin though maybe 18 to 22 guage. .29DCR Iron core at 2.5mh.

Should one want to go lower DCR? I keep hearing two sides to that issue. A 12 guage Air Core closely matches original DCR. 10 and 8 guage are both or course lower DCR.

Guage of wire is one issue but resonance must also be an issue and more than I thought. When one can clearly hear less resonance from the VSF (an excellent cap) to CAST. Another issue must be the silk or whatever the wire is coated in as Irish65 thought your 12 gauge to sound better than 8 guage albeit at much more cost.

But I also assume resonance means much more in the tweeter freq than the woofer? Am I wrong here? North Creek says people talk about improved midrange (with the bigger lower DCR woofer coil) is that because of less resonance (with a high quality coil) in the low freq make the midrange stand out better more clearly?

If I get 10 or 8 guage I am looking at dual runs of Duelund 14.5 guage copper hook up wire to the woofer. It just seems strange to have a thick wire inductor running to a less thick hook up wire. Bottle neck?

Thanks very much for the help in clearing the thought process on this.

I assume the Silk and oil on the copper wire is the same as on the capacitors and inductors?
ait
480 posts
 
Be careful with the placement of huge gauge air core inductors - they throw off very large magnetic fields! I'm experimenting with some 12 gauge Northcreek inductors for my speakers, and they will actually cause music to play from a disconnected driver if it is passed with 2-3 inches of them, right through thin air! I can only imagine that the 8 and 10 gauge will produce even bigger fields than that.

So be sure to orient the crossover components in ways that minimize these effects (axes at 90 deg angles, lots of space in between, etc.). There are placement diagrams on the internet to help with that.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Wow! Ait

My speaker design makes 90 deg easy as the crossover sits flat but do not like the sound of that idea sound coming out of the wrong driver!

What would be lots of space. I have done some reading with some saying that was one "advantage" (if you want to call it that) of Iron core is the Iron core overwhelms everything in the area so it not affected by magnets from drivers. (if you call that an advantage?)

Have you thought about outboard?

I can find very little on this subject of inductors? (except from manufactures)

What do the North Creek's sound like? Did you come from Iron Core or another Air Core? and same guage?
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Ait

I was talking to North Creek today and they said to make sure your coil was a opposite angles to your woofer magnet. (meaning 90 deg)
ait
480 posts
 
I am building outboard x-overs using the Northcreek inductors on the woofers and low mid, and Solen Heptalitz inductors on everything else (it is a 6-way design with 10 inductors, 9 capacitors, 5 resistors and three adjustment pots per speaker). Needless to say if I went Duelund for caps and inductors I'd be broke, so I'm using Mundorf Supreme caps and the above-mentioned inductors!! I might spring for some Duelund resistors, however.

I did the driver induction experiment just to see how close I could get to the inductors before I heard interference - it was very surprising how much of a magnetic field they set up. If you put those inductors inside a speaker enclosure you'd better make sure they are far from the drivers.

Also, inductors will interfere with each other (look up "inductor crosstalk"). The inductors need to be well separated in space if they are in the same plane (i.e. both lying flat), I found that the bigger inductors need ~8 inches between them in that sort of arrangement. If you place them with their axes at 90 degrees, you can get them closer - see the chart I linked below:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1500176

Iron has a much higher magnetic permeability than air, and that causes the magnetic field of iron-core inductors to be contained in a much smaller space, so they can be placed closer together than air cores without interfering. Iron cores, however suffer from hysteresis distortion and can saturate at high power levels.

I have not heard the Northcreeks in a finished speaker yet, only on the crossover prototype board with a driver wired into them - they sound good, but I won't know any more until I finish putting the speakers back together.
More to discover