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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
I see Tony has updated his site.

A couple noted changes Mundorf Supreme down to 9 from 10 (I think)

The Silver in Oil down to 10.5 (I thought 11)

Most importantly is the CAST is up 14! That is more like it. I thought the rating would be 15 when it came out as they are much better than even the VSF. (in noise reduction)

I would not be surprised to see Tony change the ratings again. Once you get a grasp on what these caps do. I suspect he is getting more synergy. Foil caps work better with more foil caps.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
I am looking into possible reasons why the vintage inductor sounds much smoother.

The NC inductor gives and takes away. Yes it has more (low end) detail but the down side is the noise factor. One of the biggest differences is the hard sound and how all the S's become SSSSSSS's. There is a hard ringing to the sound which becomes frustrating. Detail you know is there, but hard detail.

The vintage (wax paper) is more muted in sound but much smoother in the mid range. Much more musical.

I suspect resonance. One of the biggest surprises to me was the difference in resonance from the VSF to CAST. Astonishing is the best word. How the world's #1 cap could make the world's #2 cap seem noisy! I was shocked at how much noise was coming though from even a very, very good cap.

I suspect that is why the NC can not compete with a vintage wax paper inductor. There is no internal method to deal with this resonance. One wire just resonates against the other.

What I did not understand (until now) is that the woofer circuit is very critical. I thought all I was dealing was low freq. This is clearly not the case. The inductor resonates a high freq that comes through the woofer. The problem is the woofer is not designed for it.

The NC inductor removed all of the gain from the VSF and CAST capacitors gave in the mid range and tweeter.

The reason I am doing this part by part. One poly cap in the mid range and 80% of the Duelund tone was gone. Wrong inductor and you think you have problems with your mid and tweeter caps.

This I never suspected. If I had a hard noisy sound I would go after the tweeter caps as the culprit. I am shocked it could very well be the woofer inductor.

Tony really needs to do inductor reviews of this critical part.

I wish I had ordered the Duelund CAST inductor when I got my Duelund caps. Back then you did not have to give your right arm for the CAST inductor.

I think I have a grasp on what that inductor would mean and it is not all about the bass.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Checking on whether to get new amp or not. I am very much leaning to just fixing up the EL84's I have and maybe buying a vintage SET down the road. New amps (unless you spend a ton of money) will likely be loaded with plastic. Something I very much want out not in!

There are so many areas that concern me in a new amp?

Output transformers? What is the insulation material? Is there any plastic?

Plastic bobbins?

From a Audio Note article on output transformers.

"We have therefore experimented with every man-made plastic insulating material available, but in the end we found that the best sounding material is a special type of paper. Paper is a natural material, and although subject to variations as are all such natural materials, it is more conducive to creating a natural sound. As with all Audio NoteĀ™ products the ear was the final arbiter as to which material was to be used".

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/trans_output.html

I also have concerns about the small value capacitors.

Steen was a fan of the old fashioned Mica ones. What are used today in modern amps?
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
I have just ordered a Jensen Paper (630v) in tube copper cap and a Duelund VSF cap for coupling caps for the amps.

I am just want to see how they compare to the vintage ones. I have really wondered about the SET craze. I do believe people on the purity of sound. I have heard with my own ears what a plastic cap can do.

I just do not know if SET is that much better or the lack of plastic caps? I sure do not hear anything but slight congestion with these amps and lack of ability when the going gets tough to sort out. But very good tonality.

I e-mailed Tony to ask him to do inductor reviews. He did agree though that it is an area of not enough attention.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Expectations of couling caps.

The vintage ERO FOL II's .022 are very tiny. They are just one half inch long and 1/4" in diameter.

The Jensens are .7" in diameter and 1.5" long.

Using pie x R2 the volume is in metric.

So 3.14 x 3mm2 x 12.7 359 cubic mm. Vintage
Jensen 3.14 x 9.5mm2 x 38mm 10767 cubic mm Jensen

So the Jensen is 30x larger in volume. The Duelund is about 10x bigger.

I know some guys do not believe the size of the cap matters. This has NOT been my experience. I expect the Jensen's and Duelund's to be much more dynamic. I also expect both to be much quieter. Even on the better vintage amps like the Fisher pre amps the size of the caps get bigger.

I am hoping for the kind of change I got from changing the tweeter caps from vintage to Duelund.

I have been doing much reading and am going against the SET route. (for now) My gut tells me much of the benefit of SET is less coupling caps. It is a given that the less amount of coupling caps the better the sound especially the poly cap kind.

Stereophile review on the EL 84 EICO
"Toss in a full restoration, and for well under $2000, the HF-81 can beat the pants off many amps and shame the SETs at their own game. I unconditionally recommend that you find an EICO HF-81, restore it, and hear for yourself what the fuss is all about". (END OF REVIEW)

I also read another review that the reviewer who was reviewing and Audio Note SET and said it was not as good as a Leak vintage tube amp.

So I do not want to give up the bass.

I think/expect a Duelund coupled vintage tube amp with no plastic and Duelund's top notch caps will sound fantastic.
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