2. speakers
  3. 1211428524

Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
hotroady
4 posts
 
You might have to scroll down, but there is a pic of Ampohm compared to Mundorf cap. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/orgy-capacitors-cap-thread-284863/index11.html
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Hotroady

It is just my personal opinion but I think you are right to stick to copper foils for your amp of some kind. I read many stories of vintage amps going to poly of which Mundorf is and losing the tone. My own experience is you do best by bettering the same kind of part but of better quality. Meaning your amp was voiced on foil caps. Mundorf would be better than a lower grade poly if that was what was in an amp.

Now what is better about that famous amp you have? Different tubes, better caps?

I did just check out the Ampohms and it is quite interesting and for me I am not surprised they sound tonally better than Mundorf Silver in Oil. It is also interesting on the thread you posted I have read JonL thread before. The price sure is right. I just wonder about resonance? That is the downfall to foil caps keeping them from resonating.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Hotroady

I see another guy just got some Duelund VSF's. It will be interesting to see what he thinks. For me I know they are expensive but I have a bunch of other parts (that were not cheap) and were not better in every way than the vintage parts. Duelund is. I have no nostagia when using them!

Duelund you really need to get these caps into the recording studio. I am serious on this. We will for sure enter a new and even better "Golden Age" of recording than from the early '50's to mid '60's.

Jensen's new copper paper tube is interesting (for lower cost operation than Duelund) and I have one coming. I expect them to be better rated than the old Jensen's.

I am eager to hear what Jimmy finds out. I bet it is and I could look very silly in this prediction.

1. Duelund CAST (he will say a little tight when first new but extremely low resonance and very natural)
2. A close race from the Teflon and Jensen (paper tube type) (bet he says Teflon has a signature)
4. Mundorf Silver Gold Oil
5. Old Jensen as tonally rich but too noisy in comparison to these other fine caps.

What do you guys think something like that?
hotroady
4 posts
 
"Now what is better about that famous amp you have? Different tubes, better caps?" The Fisher? The huge output transformers, 55w per channel. Sounds best with Telefunkin 12AX7's, and GE EL34 fat bottles.
tempoelectric's avatar
tempoelectric
14 posts
 
On 07-27-09, Volleyguy wrote:

"Tempo Electric has changed their ratings based on what has been said here by many of us..."

I just want to de-lurk to belatedly clarify this point. We didn't actually change the ratings, themselves, but we did change the way the rating tiers were labeled.

Based on comments earlier in this thread, there was an implication that caps on Tier D were grossly inferior to the ones higher up, when they are really good enough for general use by the typical DIYer. Not everyone can spend the sort of money that Duelend or VCap Teflons, among others, cost, so the vast majority of users will probably find caps on this lower tier to be the most affordable for their projects.

To remove the possible stigma, we renamed the top three tiers AAA, AA, and A, respectably, since that's where the really outstanding performers ended up. We then changed the name of the fourth level from D to B. The differences among the first three tiers were often subtle and you really need to be at the outer fringes of perfectionist audio in both equipment and listening skills (I modestly include my partner, myself, and our listening panel in that category) to appreciate the improvements that these caps can provide. Generally speaking, you also need deeper pockets and a higher level of obsession than the typical DIYer may have, as well.

In addition, for the vast majority of listeners, the top tier caps may be financial overkill. If you can live with the trade-offs mentioned on Tier B (formerly Tier D), then it's possible to elevate mundane equipment to something far better without busting the bank.

A point which many DIYers may overlook, is that by carefully matching inexpensive caps that otherwise didn't fare so well when compared to the very best, it's still possible to achieve a sound that's surprisingly good. For example, in his personal phono stage, my audio partner, Dr. Arthur Loesch, paired the hard sounding Electrocube with the soft sounding Vitamin Q and achieved surprisingly good results. It's not the way I'd prefer to do it, but the sound was far better than the relatively low cost (or individual flaws) might suggest. In the production version of the same circuit, we had to spend 10 times as much to hear a 5% improvement (advancing from 95 to 100), but that's what perfectionist audio is all about.

As for the next round of comprehensive tests, Arthur and I are working on a set of aftermarket cross-overs for the Tannoy Monitor Gold drivers, so we will eventually revisit the speaker caps which were overlooked or unavailable earlier, including the Duelend CAST PIO series. We're also working on a couple of new electronic designs, where overlooked lower value brands will be compared with the best of the earlier rounds. Given the snail's pace at which things happen around here, this could easily be as long as a year from now (September, 2010).

For those who are curious, we agree that the Dueleund resistors are the best we've heard to date for use in loudspeaker x-overs (we rate Caddock MS and MV series as the next in line), but we're also interested in trying Intact Audio's (Dave Slagle's) latest type which are custom wound with copper magnet wire, based on the desired resistance at a given temperature.

http://www.intactaudio.com/res.html

Thanks! And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion thread...

//Joseph Levy
More to discover