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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
tempoelectric's avatar
tempoelectric
14 posts
 
On 07-27-09, Volleyguy wrote:

"Tempo Electric has changed their ratings based on what has been said here by many of us..."

I just want to de-lurk to belatedly clarify this point. We didn't actually change the ratings, themselves, but we did change the way the rating tiers were labeled.

Based on comments earlier in this thread, there was an implication that caps on Tier D were grossly inferior to the ones higher up, when they are really good enough for general use by the typical DIYer. Not everyone can spend the sort of money that Duelend or VCap Teflons, among others, cost, so the vast majority of users will probably find caps on this lower tier to be the most affordable for their projects.

To remove the possible stigma, we renamed the top three tiers AAA, AA, and A, respectably, since that's where the really outstanding performers ended up. We then changed the name of the fourth level from D to B. The differences among the first three tiers were often subtle and you really need to be at the outer fringes of perfectionist audio in both equipment and listening skills (I modestly include my partner, myself, and our listening panel in that category) to appreciate the improvements that these caps can provide. Generally speaking, you also need deeper pockets and a higher level of obsession than the typical DIYer may have, as well.

In addition, for the vast majority of listeners, the top tier caps may be financial overkill. If you can live with the trade-offs mentioned on Tier B (formerly Tier D), then it's possible to elevate mundane equipment to something far better without busting the bank.

A point which many DIYers may overlook, is that by carefully matching inexpensive caps that otherwise didn't fare so well when compared to the very best, it's still possible to achieve a sound that's surprisingly good. For example, in his personal phono stage, my audio partner, Dr. Arthur Loesch, paired the hard sounding Electrocube with the soft sounding Vitamin Q and achieved surprisingly good results. It's not the way I'd prefer to do it, but the sound was far better than the relatively low cost (or individual flaws) might suggest. In the production version of the same circuit, we had to spend 10 times as much to hear a 5% improvement (advancing from 95 to 100), but that's what perfectionist audio is all about.

As for the next round of comprehensive tests, Arthur and I are working on a set of aftermarket cross-overs for the Tannoy Monitor Gold drivers, so we will eventually revisit the speaker caps which were overlooked or unavailable earlier, including the Duelend CAST PIO series. We're also working on a couple of new electronic designs, where overlooked lower value brands will be compared with the best of the earlier rounds. Given the snail's pace at which things happen around here, this could easily be as long as a year from now (September, 2010).

For those who are curious, we agree that the Dueleund resistors are the best we've heard to date for use in loudspeaker x-overs (we rate Caddock MS and MV series as the next in line), but we're also interested in trying Intact Audio's (Dave Slagle's) latest type which are custom wound with copper magnet wire, based on the desired resistance at a given temperature.

http://www.intactaudio.com/res.html

Thanks! And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion thread...

//Joseph Levy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Hi Joseph

I would like to say thanks very much for your site as it deals with a very important (to audio nuts) issue of the quality of passive parts.

I assume once someone is going to your site they understand that passive parts do matter and one can easily hear the difference.

This is were the tough part comes in. My two main sources of info were your site and Tony Gee's both excellent. I actually found your (wording and description) to more accurate (or to my ear IMO) in the the caps I heard. Your description was very good on Duelund VSF vs. Mundorf Supreme. Cost 6x as much but might be 2-3x better. I also agreed with you on the Silver in Oil as I thought it tilted the sound upward and left a signature on the sound which might be Ok if one was trying to do that? IMO I agree with your site, get the Supreme unless you are willing to spend the extra for Duelund. But if keeping the speakers Duelund well worth it. Good wording again and even as a Duelund fan I would not put them into a set of speakers I did not already really like and plan to keep.

Another tough part how does spending money on caps rate compared to all the other areas of ones system that could be improved and this will always be tough as you can not know what ones system is or how much they think the improvement is worth. As Dgarretson had mentioned long ago on the need for balance. I agree with him in principal except I believe the crossover is a area of MASSIVE weakness is most systems. (the after thought to most speaker companines)

When I had my Linn speakers I used $1k (here in Canada) worth of tri-wire (speaker wire) all hooked to a $2 tweeter capacitor and this IMO is a complete waste of money! Moving to $20 Mundorf Supreme tweeter cap would have been vastly better money spent. A bigger improvment for a fraction of the $. I suspect this pattern to be very wide spread. I would say 99.9% of people have NOT overspent on their crossover.

In Tony's site he rates 48 different caps. He gives 12 (was 13 before the downgrade to Mundorf Supreme)(or 25%) of the total a 10/10 or above. To me I found this confusing? I did not know why I would want better than a 10/10 cap? I thought they all must be awesome compared to what I had as they were all better than 10/10. Would I even hear the difference?

When I could hear the difference so easily from Duelund VSF to CAST I was shocked! My VSF was rated 12.5/10 wayyyy beyond perfect? I wish Tony would rate his top cap a 10/10 and downgrade all else from there. If Tony had a Duelund CAST at 10 a Mundorf Supreme at 6 and a Solen Fast Cap at 3 or so this would be very accurate to the reader. If I have 3's in my crossover (which I know signals failure grade) going to a Mundorf Supreme at 6 would be a significant step up which in my opinion it is and likely very good bang for the $ for almost anyone in any value of speaker.

As much as we (on this thread) are flattered that you changed the rating based on this thread I personally think your old ratings were better.

I admit to not ordering Tier D Jensen's based on your rating but this is not a bad thing thing. You likely have saved me money. Passive parts can be fantastic bang for the $ but it can get quite expensive to make sideways movements. I have come to the conclusion I am either have good hearing or am very fussy and your Tier A (maybe B) (old rating) is all I am looking at.

Joesph from your site and your accurate description's is why I ordered ASC power supply caps as I wanted to hear what does a power supply do and what is it's relative value compared to crossover parts? (not yet done with this one as there were other issues)

I say stick to your guns and keep the old ratings. Let the cookies crumble were they may. Maybe it was your rating that forced Jensen into a new cap? A person not really in to this will be Ok anyway with Tier D. The letter grade will not upset them. A person who does care will get a false sense with Mundorf Supreme being rated Tier AA when it is a good cap but Tier B sounds much more realistic.

More than you raising your ratings I really hope Tony lowers his ratings to only one cap being 10/10 after all there can only be one best anything setting the standard.
tempoelectric's avatar
tempoelectric
14 posts
 
Thanks for your comments!

I don't want to beat this topic to death, but the system used in labeling each level will always carry some sort of psychological baggage with it.

As an editor, I never cared for the original A, B, C, and so on, because of the association with the grading system used in many schools where grades C and below are considered failing (or close to failing). Though they are not the very best in an absolute sense, for the average DIYer, who may otherwise be clueless, the caps on the tiers formerly called C and D are far from failures. You'd be surprised (well, maybe not) at the number of folks who still think that all passive parts sound alike and for whom spending more than $2 on a capacitor is stretching the budget.

The idea was to give the results some sort of pecking order, to clearly highlight the very best that we heard, and to try and avoid stigmatizing some otherwise decent products. Many listeners in our audience simply don't share the level of obsession that you (Volleyguy) and I (we) have, so I wanted to cut the typical reader some slack and suggest a range of alternatives to "cost no object" parts without completely denigrating their value. Hence, the decision to relabel the tiers. Perhaps Greek letters are the answer.

Also, in our designs, we usually mix caps (as well as comparable resistors) from the top three levels in order to cancel out any sonic signature (and they all have one). An argument could be made, however, that Duelund components are the exception to this rule, since (so far) no one has been unable to detect any audible signature worth mentioning.

In the future, if (for example) we feel that the Duelund CAST PIO blows the VSF out of the water, we're more likely to drop the VSF down to AA, and so on, rather than create a AAAA tier. But who knows? Maybe a class by itself is where the CAST belongs. We have some very interesting candidates lined up for the next round, including the Audio Note Silvers. I'd love to have some samples of the Duelund and Jensen silvers for comparison, too.

BTW, I still haven't read more than 10% of this thread, but will peek in from time to time to get a sense of what new discoveries may surface. Apologies if I don't respond or comment for awhile, even months. There are just not enough hours in the day!

Happy Listening,
Joe
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Hi Joe

I will give you the long and short of the thread to keep you from reading so much.

Thread starts off I was selling a set of vintage Klipsch Lascala's (Alnico magnet foil cap vintage)

When selling a guy who was buying them showed up with a vintage Fisher tube amp (untouched) It did not sound all great, yet I was VERY intrigued. This was the basic system that is very common in the U.S. a set of Khorns and vintage tube amp. It sounded much more real than my S.S. gear. It sounded more real than the very expensive tube amps and speakers I have heard.

So a bought the tube amp and did a rebuild of the tired crossover of the Klipsch. (to stunning results I might add)

Started off with Sonicaps. Then Mundorf Supreme's and then Silver in Oil. Then I tried Duelund VSF and they were distinctly different. Very natural and real sounding. Then CAST, same sound but MUCH less noise. I go on to note their is MUCH more resonance in caps than I would have ever thought. (even from VSF to CAST it was hard to comprehend)

The thread goes on with me commenting on how the poly caps ALL had a distinctly plastic sound. I then find out Steen Duelund had said the same thing. (hence the reason for his wonderful caps)

I had noted that even one poly cap in the crossover and the sound changed to plastic. Also noted that I could not listen to one speaker that was foil caps and one that was poly at the same time. It was almost like the speaker's were out of phase.

Frederik (from Duelund) could not say for sure but thought that plastic caused a static build-up?

I could mix and match Duelund and vintage foil caps no problem but not put in a poly cap.

I feel that no plastic is the way to go. Steen Duelund also likes Mica caps. This is what is in the vintage for small values. So I decide to just recap the Fisher.

Others on here have posted that they really like the Clarity MR cap and some think it just as good or better in some ways to Duelund VSF.

I had noted that when mixing Duelund and other poly caps in the crossover you do not get the full Duelund (effect) of tonality. I also noted that same effect when using S.S. and Duelund, better tonality but not the same as when using all foil in the tube amp. (meaning there seems to be a foil synergy)

Others noted that Duelund CAST Silver was even better albeit at a very expensive price.

Then the thread goes on to try inductors. I have only tried North Creek 10 guage but have Duelund WPIO being made.

The North Creek is not a bad inductor more open sounding than the wax paper steel laminate vintage inductor but the North Creek has a hard sound and can ring? High freq hardness. I am sure much better than most inductors.

So Joe that will save you much time.

Now what are your feelings?

How do you feel on plastic? Is it evil? (as far as tone)

I noted that all poly caps are much quieter than vintage foil caps even if the poly caps have poor tone.

Do the Teflon caps have the same static build up?

Phono stage is poor in the Fisher's and maybe all vintage amps. I feel maybe because the foil coupling caps are poor (meaning far too noisy) as the vintage foil in the Klipsch were wayyyyyy too noisy.

So that is where it is. I am thrilled with the line stage and can not believe how real it sounds and am putting in coupling caps in the phono stage.

I would like to go with lower resonating foil caps (sticking to the no plastic theme) but this of course is very costly.
tempoelectric's avatar
tempoelectric
14 posts
 
There's quite a lot to address here, so I may just comment on one issue at a time.

In terms of materials, all caps contain two layers of foil, which can be silver, copper, tin, or aluminum. That's the material which is electrically charged. The insulating material, which separates the foil layers, can be paper (treated with wax, oil, or other substances), plastic (such as Teflon, polystyrene, polypropylene, mylar, or polyester), something more exotic (silk), or some combination of the others. More expensive caps use individual, interleaved (or inter-wound) layers of conductors and insulators. Those are the "film-and foils." The less expensive ones spray or coat the conductive material onto the insulator. Those are called "metalized."

So, because they perform totally opposite functions, foil vs. plastic really isn't the correct vocabulary. What we're looking at is a wide mix of material combinations and fabrication techniques, some of which sound better than others when used in perfectionist audio components.

It's only been in the past 30 years that the concept of capacitors having distinct sound characteristics has come about. Traditionally, the best insulators, like Teflon and polypropylene, have been considered the best sounding, but they are also the most difficult and expensive to wind. Exotic combos, like the Jupiter or Duelunds are very recent developments.

What sets the Duelunds apart is their completely different approach, both in materials and fabrication. For the curious, there are papers by both Steen Duelund and Harvey Rosenberg (who was an early champion of Mr. Duelund's research) which can be found online. They go into much more detail about the theory behind his approach than one can easily summarize.

The other big variable is high voltage vs. passive circuit applications. Our experiments showed that the same cap used in high voltage electronics often sound very different when used in a passive speaker crossover (and vise versa). Also, putting them together in different combinations in the same circuit can greatly alter the end result. Throw in all of the other parts that make up a circuit (tubes, transistors, resistors, inductors, transformers, copper or silver wire, solder, and so on) and there's no end to it.

Basically, we found that certain caps (as well as other components) consistently sounded better when used in certain positions, combinations, or passive vs. active circuits. The Duelund caps and resistors are certainly at the top of the list, but others worked well, too. The issue of resonance in a capacitor is also worth considering and this may be a characteristic of how tightly a cap is wound, as well as the type and thickness of the insulating material. This may be why the "new" VCap TFTF sounds better than the original -- the Teflon insulation is substantially thicker.

For a long time we thought that foil-type inductor coils, such as those made by Alpha-Core, were the best to use. However, Dave Slagle pointed out to us that, abstractly speaking, these were built like capacitors (layers of foil wrapped with concentric layers of plastic insulation) and that we should stick to wire-wound inductor coils, like the Solen air-core. I actually did a direct comparison of Duelund's original wire-wound, iron-core, toroidal inductor with the Alpha-Core and preferred the Alpha-Core. This just shows that the ultimate proof is in the listening. Along those lines, my partner, Dr. Loesch, has historically preferred oil caps, but in our tests none of them really sounded as good as the film-and-foils.

My point is that there's really no "evil" material and that the reasons why we prefer one material or fabrication technique over another cannot always be applied as a general rule. To give you a more specific answer, as of this writing, I can't say that plastic, per se, has a sound that we can personally distinguish as plastic. Of course, we've never tried the Duelund caps or resistors in our electronics (the high voltage Duelunds weren't on the market when we were voicing our amp and preamp), so that view may change when we do.
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