Just bought Rubber Soul on new remastered CD and am doing the burn in that way. It sounds terrible! Why do they keep doing this to music? Turn up all the instruments full blast and that's better, right? Clearly mixed for the video game.
Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
- ...
- 3012 posts total
My ears are just recovering from Rubber Soul. I forgot how bad some recordings (compression and loudness) can be. Closing in on 100 hours for the Jensen's and decent break in for the Duelund WPIO. I will change back to the EL84 so that the signal is identical this weekend to compare directly to the North Creek. |
Over on a DIY site a guy posted a picture of the crossover in his B&W 800D's, they have the following... Tweeter - 4.7uF Mundorf Gold/Silver Capacitor Midrange - 22uf+22uF+10uF Mundorf Supreme Capacitors Woofer - 100uf+100uF Mundorf Mcap Capacitors Tweeter/Midrange uses Van Den Hul CS-14 Copper/Silver 14AWG cable Woofers use copper 12AWG cable He was asking about changing the internal wire, which I would leave alone. |
I am over 100 hours on the Jensen's Paper Copper Tube caps. Jensen vs. vintage. Well not all vintage is the same as is not all new caps. In the phono stage Fisher used some no name cap and it was not very good. So Jensen there all the way. Now on to the linestage. Jensen vs. vintage foil Vishay Ero Fol II. What this Vishay has in common with the Vishay that Tony Gee talks about I am not sure, maybe nothing? Although this vintage shares many of the same traits. They sound very alive. "concert hall acoustics" Tony says about new Vishay ERO is it the same? When I was done doing the speakers and wrote on here that Duelund blew away the vintage tweeter caps but it was quite close in the midrange, much closer than I was thinking it would be. I expected to get a blast from everyone and including Duelund. I now understand that since Steen used vintage in electronics and since this was a midrange cap test it was not surprsing that it was close. The Jensen vs. Vishay is going to need the full 200 hours to decide. It is very close. When/if the Jensen moves past the vintage in midrange realness then I have a easy choice. Some of the best deals in Audio must be those old foil caps because they go for chump change. (now that they are old) The Duelund VSF for the midrange is $500 each and it was close to vintage foil. The Mundorf's Supreme's for the midrange were $100 and the vintage was much better. In fact before I assemble the speakers I am going to try it again, to see how close. Now at least Duelund was better. The Sonicaps vs vintage foil was the first test I did and my wife said that is the BEST thing you have ever done! (Audio wise) but the problem was she talking about the vintage! The Jensen's were over $100 (on sale) for a pair and I still like (so far) the vintage better but Jensen is a good replacement and I see why vintage tube guys have used them for so long. So I am taking out that amp and putting in the EL84 for a comparison from Duelund vs. North Creek inductors. (so that all parts are the same) I need to know whether to order a second inductor or not? |
Again I have no idea how you can evaluate each component like this in MONO, yes you will get FAR better effect with every cap and inductor in stereo pairs on any speaker. Thats why to me a lot of this was a throw away thread, I am sorry. Until you can give a real evaluation with BOTH speakers set up correctly, running equal parts to hear the real deal in soundstage etc Not one speaker running with one supposed better part and just shifting your balance knob on a to the other speaker and saying OH I can hear one is better than the other, we don't have much to go on, because in this case not all things are equal from you are saying. So yes I suggest if your serious about one part, order its companion and then put it in to the the real test running as it should on both sides of the room and see what comes together. Its actually kinda strange many have fed the beast on this thread as it stands not reading or realizing you are evaluating a critical soundstage and passive component on one channel at a time You asked the question so I say YES order it so you can hear the entire balanced soundstage of caps and inductors! I don't believe any of the Tony Gee or whoevers reviews you refer to were doing this in a mono test on stereo speakers, I am sure they had a Pair Beyond that believe me when I say even the more "Ruff around the Edges" caps or inductors you are stating don't do justice will actually sound smoother when you hear equal signals on both sides at once opposed to one sided mono killing the whole thing off in the first place. I would like to hear back from Duelund on the thoughts of evaluating their caps and inductors in mono for speaker pairs? Good luck |
- 3012 posts total