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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Duelund

Yes I might be crazy. Like I have mentioned before how did some old tube amp pulverize my new SS amp at the start of this thread started my brain thinking and testing wanting to know why?????

One of the things that shocked me the most was the old amp was "dead" quiet. I have 104db efficient speakers and the noise reduction was just astonishing compared to the new SS amp.

I am starting to wonder now about new electrolytics. My formerly "dead" quiet amp EL84 has no idle hum (and did not before) at all with the Jensen electrolytic but a white noise at a level vastly higher than the vintage electrolytic cap. I can hardly keep myself from yanking it out!

Are the new electrolytics packed tighter to make them so much smaller? The old one I took apart a lot of goo (electrolytic) with the paper kind of a gooey dead mass. Are the new electrolytics too focused on size??? (being small) Is the reason the ASC caps are thought so good (power supply) they have liquid around the cap. Is this causing a dampening? I expect so.

On the coupling caps the vintage Vishay's are all dipped in some resin. The Ampohms are not. Is that why the Ampohms are noiser? Is this dampening the resonance?
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Ait

I would not have a clue how to do that! Now when you say eliminate PS caps from the signal path completely? So no PS caps? Are regualar PS caps considered in the signal path? Anywhere to read up on this?
ait
480 posts
 
Yes, in most designs the last PS cap is in the signal path, because the signal path is not isolated from the PS current path. The PS caps are still there in a parafeed type design, but they are isolated from the signal path by the circuit design. For example, a constant current source (CCS) supplying the plate voltage will have an almost infinite AC impedance, meaning that the signal can't get through it (high power supply isolation in other words) - a resistor does not even come close to that, and so a good portion of the signal will pass back through it. What you end up with in the parafeed design is two current loops, one for the signal and another for the power supply, instead of having them commingled.

This is a bit of a complex subject, and in order to understand it you will need to read up on CCS theory, plate chokes, parafeed topology, and general amplifier circuit design (as I did). The DIYAudio tube forum is a good place to start.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Hours on Jensen Electrolytic I would guess 25-30++.

When doing the midrange speaker comparison cap test I found the vintage foil in oil to be the second best to Duelund and the difference not huge. (this confused and shocked me)

I once said after putting the Duelund tweeter caps in the speaker I could not believe I was listening to digital.

When the Jensen is in the amp power supply the sound is digital! The noise level is for sure up. Sound tense and dry.

I am of the belief it is the liquid. The vintage electrolytic cap is bigger for the same volume. More liquid? In making caps smaller tighter and no doubt drier is there not a price to pay? If Duelund adds more oil on there wire and claim improvement would not having less electrolytic (goo) make sound drier?

At this point this is one of the biggest differences in caps I have heard. (not in the new caps favour either) Yes more bass but much more noise.

At the begining of the thread I put in Sonicaps in one speaker and left the other vintage foil and oil. My wife came to listen with absolute no knowledge of which was which and was floored how much better the one was. She said that is amazing! You should be thrilled, problem was she was pointing to the vintage foil in oil not the new caps. (with the hours on them)

I think that is why some guy pays $15k for some old amp that may go up in smoke any time. Is it the old electrolytics?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1291419107&/Marantz-Model--9-(Original)-tu

Tempo claims that ASC caps beats all electrolyics PERIOD. I can imagine this.

Now what about foil in oil in the power supply? I have already looked at Duelund but too pricey an experiment for me.

As it stands now the vintage goooey sounding electrolytic is going back in and Duelund caps and oily wire everywhere.

I will put at least 100+ hours on the power supply cap to be sure.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Ait

I am going to have to do some more reading about this for sure as I am just floored by what the first cap does after the rectifier tube! Just unbelievable!

In my opinion this may "the" most important part of the amp?

It actually scares me! No one would know I had several $k in coupling caps and wires. I want to end this experiment early.

This may be why I thought the vintage ASC amp (had a poly plastic tone to it) was the only bad sounding vintage amp I had with a dead feel to it that is until now.
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