Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

Is not "World Class" a debatable issue or is it absolute? Absolutes seem to work best in a religious context and I sure sense a lot of that in this hobby. To each his own.

To my way of thinking the Berning is "world class" just by virtue of such a product existing, not by anything absolute. Can anyone answer if they heard any product at its absolute best? Truth be told, it can probably always get better, at least perceptably so.

I recently had a epiphany of sorts involving a friend's very familiar vintage system. A major transformation in musical involvement was realized by changing out ONE set of interconnect cables. This simple change did more than my Berning amp did in the same system without the cable swap. I couldn't believe it so I went over a few days later and heard the same thing.

Of the absolute "among the best" what is the absolute best? Let your ears guide you Luke. For as you travel this path ye shall one day realize that it is a never ending journey and nothing is absolute excepting ye shall keep searching.

Kevin....ok...i'll bite....since until about a month ago i owned the only set of Kharma Exquisite 1Ds in the world and i am wondering just how you have such extensive experience with them to be sure they are "not a great speaker" and that some mystery speaker such as the Fischer & Fischer SL1000 "is better in every way than the Kharma 1D". a statement like that might not be too credible if you have never ever heard a Kharma Exquisite 1D (which is most likely the case).

if you want your comments on the Lamm ML1 or the Tenor75Wi to be considered seriously please confine yourself to judgements on products you have heard.

you also mention that your speakers are 88db efficient, if they also have a 4ohm impedence load or lower they would not be appropriate for the Tenor 75Wi and would cause the performance problems you describe. an OTL amplifier is great when used as intended, but is not as flexible as a conventional designe, such as the Lamm ML1.

Mike please don't bite Kwann!

If you believe you have ony pair of 1d, maybe also believe moon made of green chese? Kwann hear 1d in Holland and 1A refrence in Belgium. If you like 1d, that all that matter!

Kevin, i recieved my 1ds in November 2001, they were the first set made. no other sets of 1Ds were delivered until January or Feburary of 2002. if you heard them in Holland, was that in Charles von Oostrom's room?

i am curious about your speakers.....are there any pictures or descriptions of this speaker on the web? i poked around a little and couldn't find any mention of this speaker or brand.

I've read this thread with great interest. I roamed
around the SET OTL world before I finally chose the
Berning Siegfried 811-10 amp, which is the 12ish W/Ch
version using Svetlana 811-10 output tubes. He also
makes a 300B output version, but from all I'd heard and
read the circuit is really optimized for the 811-10 and
sounds great. Also, 811-10 tubes (and 572-10) are
plentiful and cheap.

I wrote to the editors of Listener magazine a while back
and asked them to do a shootout of the various OTL
amp designs . . . certainly there are differences between
circlotrons vs. ZHOTL vs. other strategies. I also think
that the ZH270's performance in these listening tests
is wonderful, considering what I perceive to be its place
in the world of amps.

In my mind, opinion only, the ZH270 represents a tubed
"workhorse" amp which is a great-sounding bridge for
folks who are used to very-high-quality solid-state
equipment and want to move into tubes. Of Berning's
commercial line (prototypes aside), it is definitely
the beefy brother intended to drive lower-impedance
lower-sensitivity (read: SS-type) speakers well. So
you can get into great-sounding tubes with your
existing Linns or whatever it is that strikes your
fancy.

Of course, there's a lot of taste-issues (chacun son
gout) in tube amps. There are hard-core tube-ophiles
(like me) who greatly prefer low-powered SETs with
high-efficiency speakers, and I can tell you that as
far as that goes, the Siegfried is one of the best
options on the market, and is also is a "good deal"
($5K-$6K) relative to other high-quality SET/OTL amps.
Speakers are arguably the weakest link in my system;
I've got an "inexpensive" pair of Moth Audio Cicada
horns that the Siegfried drives with aplomb. And with
bass, more than you'd expect from their low-end rating
of 60Hz.

Anyway, I guess I just wanted to say that I think the
discussion is quite interesting, but there are (as folks
have mentioned) a LOT of different ways to use tubes.
Push-pull OTL (like the ZH270) is a relatively uncommon
beast; OTL is more common in the low-powered single-ended
triode realm. So who knows.

Also, regarding NOS tubes. I think you can make a huge
difference with the tubes. Not so much with the outputs
as you can with the inputs, as someone has mentioned
using NOS 12AT7s. The Siegfried has 6 triodes/channel
in the form of 2 6SN7s, 1 6J5G, and the output 811-10.
I've got 1940s VT-231s as the 6SN7s and 1950s Tungsram
6J5Gs, and I think the sound is a world better than it
was with the stock Russian stuff. That said, I think
Svetlana and Sovtek are putting a lot into R&D in their
new tube designs (like 811-10, 6H30Pi, etc.) but don't
do as well with their remakes of old designs like 12AT7.

Sorry to ramble. Great discussion!

Stuart