Your choice of EL34's

Albert, with all due respect to you, and I do think very highly of you, I think you are wrong on the 5 to 1 markup. That may be the case on PARTS costs on a piece of electronics, but not on the markup on a single item. I even think the 5 to 1 markup is higher than many manufacturers do, correct me if I am wrong. If they do a 5 to 1 markup -- that is a crime.......

It is disgusting to hear, however, that an EL34 costs 50 cents to make and then wholesales for $6.00. No wonder many of you believe that NOS tubes are far superior to present day production. I have limited experience with NOS tubes, simply because of the expense and the uncertainness of what you are buying.

Albert, I wonder what you would recommend for an EL34 for the Cary V-12?

Kevziek, a few years back, an amplifier manufacturer friend of mine bought tubes direct from Russia. These retailed for about $18.00 at that time. He and others in my audio group joined orders and bought 300 of them for about $3.00 each. I assume the guy in Russia that was our contact made something for his effort.

The five to one markup is usually on parts, and I did not mean to say that EVERY audio component has that markup. Remember that the manufacturer has to make a profit after designing the gear, ordering, sorting and testing the parts, then must advertise and support the dealers and customers and have staff to do warranty.

This is all very expensive, as we are talking about human time and effort. The cost of the materials may well be 5 to 1 or even greater, but that does not take into consideration the other factors.

I think because tubes are somewhat fragile, prone to failure with expectation of total replacement (not pro rated like tires) the markup is kept high to build in a bulletproof profit base. I wish some of the profit was spent to produce the premium tubes that we discussed.

As for the direct question about the Cary V-12, I have zero experience with it, but have heard from reliable sources that it is a very good amp. My tests of various EL 34 tubes in the Tube Research, Sound Valves, and Wolcott all prove the Tesla E34 L to be a great tube for the money. It is new production like the Russian and Chinese tubes and is probably not better reliability wise, although I do like it's sonic signature.

Of course the Mullard is what sounds best in each of these, especially in the high end gear like the Tube Research and Wolcott. They even beat up on my supply of Telefunken EL34's.

My posts were not meant to say that new production tubes were of no value, not even to say that they were not good. The discussion somehow turned to where I felt I had to justify the quality of NOS, something that seldom ever needs be said at this site.

FWIW, I agree with Albert that the Tesla's are good for the money, but for a little more I prefer the Svetlana's. My tests were done in my Connie-Jay MV-55 driving Thiel CS2.2's (I've not heard the V-12). The Tesla's were certainly better sounding than the stock Sovtek's, and I used them for over a year before trying the Svet's. My impetus to experiment again came from durability issues I was having with the Czech tubes. The Svetlana's have the most natural sonic signature of the three on all manner of instruments and voice, with less tonal coloration, the cleanest transients, and the firmest bass. The Tesla's were more extended than the boring-sounding Sovtek's, but had a rising high frequency emphasis and lacked fullness and body compared to the Svet's, which I think are more neutral but just as extended. They also possess the smoothest-textured presentation and the greatest sense of image solidity. Overall, the amp now sounds more transparent to the source, with the least "electronic" character imposed. And as I stated before, longevity seems very good so far (about a year of a few to several hours a day use).

Zaikesman, your observations are no doubt correct. As with all electronics, the end result of various tube tests, whether output or input variety, vary depending on the gear.

I performed the same test with the Svetlana tubes that you did, only with the amps I've already mentioned. They were somewhat better than the Sovtek and Electro Harmonex, but still ranked below the Tesla, and way below the Amperex, Telefunken and Mullards.

As with all things in high end audio, best that the end user does the final test for themselves. Tubes are a smart investment, last forever in storage while generally increasing in value.

What is not the perfect tube in your system today, may be tomorrow. Investing in NOS or clean premium tubes to have on hand for testing insures you are getting the maximum performance possible.

In fact, we all voice our systems to the associated gear. If you or I changed a major component such as the speakers, or moved to another listening room, we may well choose a different tube for one or another positions.

I must say though, that in my system I always prefer voicing with premium tubes rather than current vintage. The only exception is the 12 AX7 Sovtek. I continue to be surprised by its remarkable performance. I wish the same effort would extend to the 6922, 6SN7, KT88 and EL 34.

Perhaps in time.

Amperex double-D-getter, late 50's. Better than the Mullard "O" getter xf2 EL34s. I've not heard the "fatbase" xf1 or metal base Mullards but Amperex are the best I've heard. The Amperex are more dynamic and less vieled; two areas of weakness for EL34s. This was in my (then) VAC triode amp which I used for three years. I sold the VAC for a Moth SET amp. I found the SET topology and both the 2a3 and 45 output tubes superior to any of the EL34 tubes I've sampled.