Sibilance how do I get rid of it?


Hello
I am currently experincing a problem with sibilance in my system,I must admit I know that unless I set up a overly dampened ( lack of Hi's ) set up, I'm almost always going to have some degree of siblance,I listen to mass produced commercial cd's so I know that this is atleast 40% of my problem , and my listening room 26'x14'x8' is relatively live,,lanolium floors..no dampening,,etc,,
But somewhere in the back of my mind I hear "you need to do careful system matching,
My system consisits of:
Cal Aria MkIII CDP
Conrad Johnson Pv10a Pre
& Conrad Johnson PV 14L Pre
Llano A100 SS Amplifier
Dynaudio Contour 1.3 2 way's "GLORIOUS Midrange and Presence"
JPS Labs superconductor FX Ic's
Tara labs Time and Space with TFA Return speaker cables
Transparent Power Plus Power cord &
MIT run of the mil powercord on the Llano power amp
I have no power conditioning whatsoever except some hospital grade junction boxes in which I have the CDP & Pre's hooked up-AMp straight to the wall.
Now I have experimented with various IC's and speaker cable Discovery,Cardas,Transparent..etc
I don't want to address this problem thru cable choice
I have changed the tubes in the CDP as well as the PreAmps
the Jps labs provides me with the transparency speed and extended Hi frequencies,,and resolution, but with noticable
sibilance could it be the Ac line conditioning or lack of it that is introducing the stridency and graininess to the sound? if so where can I start?
What brand power cables offfer the best shielding or get's the GRUNGE out? I've heard good things about coincident
I knwo that I should ( and AM in the process of)addressing the room itself carpet is in order and some accoustic paneling to kill the early reflections,should I do this first? then get the ac conditioning? has anyone had any experience with Marigo Powercords, shuyanta, Coincident etc.
Please offer me your suggestions
braab8
Where to begin?? Well first I don't think anyone would argue that siblance can be caused from poor (on sometimes purposely done--as Zaikesman points out) source material. What can you do about this--nothing. Siblance can also be caused by poor source components (or D/A conversion). Siblance can be caused by poor power that affects one or more of your components. However, in this case, it seems clear that the majority of the problem and the first place to attack it is the room. After that, you may begin to attack the other areas, but it's not going to do much good until you get the big problem fixed first.

Stehno makes an interesting point about how we perceive sound. We have done a lot of research in psycho acoustics and it's a very interesting topic. Not many do this type of work and it's not often published since there is little funding on it. We are exploring new avenues in this area and are finding that perception is dominant in listening environments over steady state measurements, but fortunately the 2 do correlate.

As Stehno states, we know when we are in a church or empty space and compensate for that. That is psychoacoustics, and he is right. The human ear has the ability to distiguish reflected tones past 35 milliseconds or so as separate from the original tone. When the reflection arrives at the ear within 35 milliseconds we can not distinguish it (for the most part) and integrate it as part of the original tone. These short time reflections add to ambiance and general spaciousness of the soundstage. The longer the reverberation times the larger the space. The louder the reverberation the emptier the space. People could walk into a space blindfolded and have someone talk to them and could give a rough estimate of the size of the space and whether it was empty with hard surfaces or not.

Now, that being said, our hearing compensation is that to tune out those later reflections past 35 milliseconds (and much longer in large spaces) and we attribute that to the noise floor. Peter D'Antonio of RPG has done a very interesting auralization of this. He has done it for many buildings, but for one it was an entry way into an office building or hotel I believe. The auralization has several voices speaking in the background and then one that is louder--speaking to you. Without room treatment the intelligibility of that speaker is very poor as it is masked by all the other voices reverberation around you, but once the room is treated the intelligibility goes way up. This might seem very obvious, but it makes an important point. Long time reflections must be attenuated or they impede on the intelligibility of the original sounds being produced. This directly translates to music, but is even more important, because we are listening critically to details including very low level and short timing cues. When reverberations of other sounds are lasting too long, they are masking those details. The reverberations longer than say 50 to 60 milliseconds will come across as sibilance.
While its true that the human ear can percieve/distinguish between the original and reflected energy the two become interrelated in different ways. A sound wave will bounce around a room an average 60 times (RT-60) before becoming inaudible (as Rives said). HIS ROOM (Braab8) is probably more like 70 to 90 times before becoming inaudible. These reverbrant sound waves bouncing around the room will do two hideous things 1) it places a certain amount of "strain" on the brain trying to decipher between the original and reflected signal(a lessening enjoyment of the musical experience) and 2) the sound waves can then crash into each other, reflected waves crashing into the original waves. This can cancel detail so that the original signal doesn't make it from the speaker to your ears unaltered. This is the summation/peaks and cancellations/nulls called Phase distortion as it pertains to room acoustics.
"Long time reflections must be attenuated or they impede on the intelligibility of the original sounds being produced" (Rives)
It happens in more deceptive ways in the higher frequencies since its not simply a matter of calculating room nodes which pertain to the lower frequencies (e.g. their wavelengths being of direct significant proportion to the room). To throw on a 3) point--regardless of how flat the speakers freq. response may be, the reflected envergy can easily become colored/unbalanced based on how the room absorbs certain freq. and reflects others and its overall dimensions. High frequencies get colored up too. I know I'm regurgitating a little now. (Lastly, I find AC conditioning to be junk in most respects. There's some foundation to it, but not enough to deserve anywhere near the level of attention it gets in the marketplace--especially compared to room treatment products.)
Your erudite responses are appreciated. And I certainly don't want to be obtuse here. However, I do not believe that you have provided one real life experience where sibilance was present and then disappeared or vice versa.

In fact, I was at the Kansas City zoo today with my family. At one point we were in a large (approx. 13H x 25L x 18W) concrete walled room with an aquarium glass wall taking up about 2/3rd's of one of the long walls. As my wife was speaking to me from about 3 feet away and I paid close attention to her pronunciations. There were only 3 other people in this mostly empty room. Her s' sounded just fine. Both in the actual and the reverb. Just as I suspected. My wife's pronunciation did not change one iota.

As I stated in an earlier post. I ran a test (for other reasons) by taking out the amplifier's in-line power conditioner and ran the romex straight from the service panel to a cryo dipped hubbell 20 amp IEC plug and plugged it directly into the amplifier. The sibilance was very present and was the most notable difference. Enough so where I was anxious to put things back to the way they were. And I know how much the sibilance increases when I remove all 3 in-line conditioners since I did not always have them.

You guys can hypothesize all you want but I am not buying it.

Perhaps when Braab8 resolves his issue or begins the process of elimination, s/he will update this post.

Besides I already know I'm right otherwise I would have changed my opinion at least 3 posts ago.

:)

-IME
Stehno: I gave you one specific example. It was a Swiss Hotel Entry (I had forgotten the specifics before). It was modelled before and after and then actually done. This is one example. Peter has many more from Airport lounges to concert halls. This is not hypothesis; these are proven phsyics and can be calculated by the Sabine principles. Not only can they be calculated, they can be reproduced in real world environments. In most cases in small room acoustics (under 8000 cubic feet) sibilance is usually not a problem unless it's a very bright room, or the absorption and diffusion is completely misplaced. And I'm not surprised if you haven't come across this problem in person. I have--guess what--now that I think about it Bill E.s room has sibilance--ask him. When we finish with his room--it won't. I'm not going to say that electrical power is not important (it is important: I use dedicated isolated lines with balanced power), but in this case it is likely a secondary issue. In cases that you have been involved in, I don't doubt it has been a primary issue, because the room wasn't that bad. Having not heard or acoustically measured this room--I'll admit--I could be wrong, but judging by the description, I'd be surprised if I was.