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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy1's avatar
volleyguy1
343 posts
 
Ricevs

If I remember right Tony Gee said the same about (bypass) caps except maybe the high end caps you mentioned. When you find the right spot do give Duelund's a try.

You also mention any cap larger than .33uf needs a bypass. All of my amps are vintage and use .047 or smaller. Anyone know what caused the change in thinking for modern designs to be .47uf or .22uf?
volleyguy1's avatar
volleyguy1
343 posts
 
"Whatever 'type' of cap one uses, you can easily id its 'signature' sound downstream. Frankly to an astonishing extent".

I for sure can not argue with this.

Like Tony Gee had said Duelund has a Super Natual sound. I might be on my own on this but think the "signature" that caps gives leaves me wondering can you get to much of the Duelund "signature"? I know maybe my wallet can only afford so much "signature" but can my ears get too much of it?

I will re-check when the vintage ASC power supply amp comes back but those poly caps in the power supply seemed to overwhelm the entire vintage character of the amp and Duelund crossover to something totally different. Changing the coupling caps from vintage to Duelund CAST made the amp much beefier, faster and better but the character remained. Never did the amp change "character". The VCap Cuft changed the character of the amp as well.

I found the same on mix and match in the crossover. Change to just one cap to a poly cap and you change the "character"

That comes back to the Duelund power supply I wish I could afford to chance. My gut tells me if ASC and Jensen Electrolytic leave a signature a Duelund power supply would have a "signature" I would love and make a very big difference!
grannyring's avatar
grannyring
6,519 posts
 
Ricevs,

I am building a preamp and soon some amps and your post is quite interesting. The whole bypass cap argument has passionate debate on both sides. Some say they do nothing, others say they degrade sound and yet others love them like you.

Have you tried this approach in gear besides speakers? Tube amps? I am open to the idea and will most likely a/b with and without bypass caps to come to the truth for me.

Do you bypass power supply caps and coupling caps? If the tube amp is regulated, then have you found bypassing still helps?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is quite interesting.

Ok Volley and others those JFX JB Premium film caps are absolutely wonderful in electronics. Just try and see first hand. Goodness they cost $3 a $20 each! I call it the way it is regardless of cost as I learn. I love the Duelund CAST and I love these also! I could live equally with both and one cost near 100x less! Ha!

I have not tried them in speakers yet. To my ear they sound better than any Mundorf in electronics.
volleyguy1's avatar
volleyguy1
343 posts
 
Grannyring

I for sure am not against cheaper parts being just as good or better. I have said many times vintage caps can represent a very good bargain. (as they are in essence free) My original oil caps were bettered by Duelund in the midrange but not by a large margin.

I am only saying what is the science in these poly caps being better and I am not saying they are not? What makes them better than say any other poly cap?

Update on Duelund in series tweeter inductor. I have taken the Duelund inductor out again and the vintage wax paper inductor is back in.

Clarify what the two parts are one the vintage inductor thin gauge round wire wrapped tight around a paper bobbin in wax paper. The Duelund is of course 12 gauge foil wire. Why does the vintage inductor sound better? Is it the change in DCR or maybe the Duelund is just noisier than the vintage part which it seems to be???

In the woofer the vintage wax paper inductor was a very thin gauge wire with an iron core inductor and the air core 12 guage Duelund which had the same DCR was much better but the vintage was quieter than the North Creek.

Here I will say it. I suspect that resonance suppression in the tweeter inductor is more important than the gauge of the wire. If this is true maybe the vintage inductor is better? The comparison is based on Duelund VSF which does not have the same construction to deal with resonance that the CAST does.

What would I like to see Duelund do? Maybe a thinner gauge wire option for the tweeter and cheaper price but still CAST? Inductors are a VERY big deal.

I am not so sure at this time that I can say a Duelund VSF inductor is good enough for the tweeter.
salectric
755 posts
 
Volleyguy1, That's interesting about the vintage inductor. While I am waiting for my 7.5uf CAST caps to break in, I plan on trying some old Altec iron core chokes in place of the Jensen choke in my high-pass crossover.

I notice that no one in this thread has mentioned the importance of mounting of crossover components. I was reminded of the importance of mounting after installing the new Duelund cap. Initially I had the cap lying flat on its bottom surface and I was a bit concerned that the cap sounded so dead and dark. I know from past Duelunds that they can start out this way so I wasn't too upset but I did want to do something to make it sound better while it broke in. I tried various objects under the cap to raise it off the wood surface it was resting on such as felt, rubber, wood and a brass cone. The cone started out as the perfect antidote making the treble sharper and more lively. After a few hours, however, it was too bright and I went to a 3/4" cube of Baltic Birch plywood---just a single cube under one edge of the cap so the cap is at an angle resting on the cube on one side and on a single point of the cap on the other side. The little cube now has just the right balance.

My point in raising this is not to endorse a particular mounting as the best way to attach a CAST cap, but simply to highlight the importance of the mounting. I haven't made any final plans for how to mount my crossover components, but my tentative plan is to attach them to a thin Baltic Birch plywood panel (1/2" or less) which in turn will be attached to the outside of the back panel of my speaker cabinet, probably with some type of rubber damping gaskets so the crossover board does not actually make direct contact with the speaker cabinet. The crossover components themselves will be secured to the plywood panel by some means that elevates them off the panel so they are in free-air mounting as much as possible. The CAST cap is so big and heavy that I am thinking of using (3) 3/4" Baltic Birch cubes under it and maybe (3) dowels on the circumference to hold it in place.
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