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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy1's avatar
volleyguy1
343 posts
 
Grannyring

I for sure am not against cheaper parts being just as good or better. I have said many times vintage caps can represent a very good bargain. (as they are in essence free) My original oil caps were bettered by Duelund in the midrange but not by a large margin.

I am only saying what is the science in these poly caps being better and I am not saying they are not? What makes them better than say any other poly cap?

Update on Duelund in series tweeter inductor. I have taken the Duelund inductor out again and the vintage wax paper inductor is back in.

Clarify what the two parts are one the vintage inductor thin gauge round wire wrapped tight around a paper bobbin in wax paper. The Duelund is of course 12 gauge foil wire. Why does the vintage inductor sound better? Is it the change in DCR or maybe the Duelund is just noisier than the vintage part which it seems to be???

In the woofer the vintage wax paper inductor was a very thin gauge wire with an iron core inductor and the air core 12 guage Duelund which had the same DCR was much better but the vintage was quieter than the North Creek.

Here I will say it. I suspect that resonance suppression in the tweeter inductor is more important than the gauge of the wire. If this is true maybe the vintage inductor is better? The comparison is based on Duelund VSF which does not have the same construction to deal with resonance that the CAST does.

What would I like to see Duelund do? Maybe a thinner gauge wire option for the tweeter and cheaper price but still CAST? Inductors are a VERY big deal.

I am not so sure at this time that I can say a Duelund VSF inductor is good enough for the tweeter.
salectric
755 posts
 
Volleyguy1, That's interesting about the vintage inductor. While I am waiting for my 7.5uf CAST caps to break in, I plan on trying some old Altec iron core chokes in place of the Jensen choke in my high-pass crossover.

I notice that no one in this thread has mentioned the importance of mounting of crossover components. I was reminded of the importance of mounting after installing the new Duelund cap. Initially I had the cap lying flat on its bottom surface and I was a bit concerned that the cap sounded so dead and dark. I know from past Duelunds that they can start out this way so I wasn't too upset but I did want to do something to make it sound better while it broke in. I tried various objects under the cap to raise it off the wood surface it was resting on such as felt, rubber, wood and a brass cone. The cone started out as the perfect antidote making the treble sharper and more lively. After a few hours, however, it was too bright and I went to a 3/4" cube of Baltic Birch plywood---just a single cube under one edge of the cap so the cap is at an angle resting on the cube on one side and on a single point of the cap on the other side. The little cube now has just the right balance.

My point in raising this is not to endorse a particular mounting as the best way to attach a CAST cap, but simply to highlight the importance of the mounting. I haven't made any final plans for how to mount my crossover components, but my tentative plan is to attach them to a thin Baltic Birch plywood panel (1/2" or less) which in turn will be attached to the outside of the back panel of my speaker cabinet, probably with some type of rubber damping gaskets so the crossover board does not actually make direct contact with the speaker cabinet. The crossover components themselves will be secured to the plywood panel by some means that elevates them off the panel so they are in free-air mounting as much as possible. The CAST cap is so big and heavy that I am thinking of using (3) 3/4" Baltic Birch cubes under it and maybe (3) dowels on the circumference to hold it in place.
grannyring's avatar
grannyring
6,519 posts
 
The best way to mount crossover parts is in an outboard crossover box. It is hard to believe how many crossover components are placed right inside a bass cavity with the woofer and cab throwing all kinds of vibrations etc. at the components. I removed a pretty extensive crossover from a bass cab into its own high quality vibration dampened box and the improvement was startling to say the least.

At least make sure it is very secure and I like what Salectric said.
ricevs
1,543 posts
 
I bypass everywhere....tube and solid state electronics and speakers. Have since 1980. Now using the smallest (5mm lead spacing) stock film and foil Wimas, modded Metalized Wimas and Vishay Rodersteins as they are the smallest and therefore fastest caps. I will be listening to the .01uf (2.5mm lead spacing) FPK-02 Wimas this week...just got them in. The metalized Wimas need to be modded as they have steel leads on them. I dremel off the sides and leads and attach my own copper leads. Most of these small caps are only rated at 63V or 100V so tube preamps/amps are a no no. However, some are made at 400V (low values like .01 max) but are hard to find. I mark all caps for outside polarity before use.
salectric
755 posts
 
For another perspective, I avoid bypass caps whenever possible for the simple reason that I can always hear them. They add a discontinuity very similar to adding a super-tweeter to a full-range speaker system. There is a heightening of treble extension and speed, and the soundstage seems larger and more dramatic, but after a while I find the effects of the bypass cap to be distracting and unnatural. Often, but not always, the bypass cap also causes the bass to become lean. These effects are audible whenever I try a bypass---coupling caps, power supply, speaker crossovers, etc.

Obviously, some folks do not react this way since otherwise no one would use bypass caps, but I am just pointing out that there is another perspective on them. In my view, you should always use a single cap with the correct value, and if the application has important sonic implications (and most do) then use the best sounding cap you can find.
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