Ok this will be a good thread.

Back in the days when I worked at an audio shop, we used to do a little demonstration for folks, regarding the order of importance in a system. We were a Linn dealer at that time, and Linn was one of the first promoters of the source argument.

We took the customer into the reference listening room. Then we played the LP12/Ittok/Karma thru a Naim 32/250 into the cheapest set of speakers that we had in the store, which were Boston Acoustics A-40. We played an album side, and let him get a feel for the sound.

Then we took out the A-40s, and plugged on the Linn DMS Isobarik top line speakers, and also a Rega Planar 3 with a Goldring cartridge instead of the Linn TT. Played the same album side again.

Notice with one system, we used our best source(LP12) and lowest speakers(A-40). With the other system, we used our best speakers(DMS) and a moderate quality source(P3). The amps and preamp were the same in both cases.

The customer always came to the same conclusion. Even with the best speakers we had, the lower quality source made the system sound worse, than the higher quality source with bottom line speakers.

So, if you have ever done direct listening comparisons in a controlled environment, swapping speakers and sources, you would come to the same conclusion as I have. The source will get the music to the speaker, and the speaker(even a cheap one) will produce it to some degree. If the music never gets to the speaker, not even the best speaker can reproduce it. The idea that a great speaker can make up for a source that doesn't supply the needed musical information is a total fallacy.

And notice that I did not use a demonstration that used some kind of total crap for the lower quality source. A Rega P3 is a well regarded lower priced TT, and is definitely not skewing the test. It is just at a lower performance level than the LP12. The DMS Isobariks could not make up for the lack of information coming into the system from the Rega. But the little Boston Acoustics A-40s could sound better(musically) than the big DMS speakers, when fed better source information. No, the frequency extension and sonic fireworks were not the same with the A-40s, but the music sounded more musical. For people who listen to music, and not audiophile sound-effects, this is the most critical issue, musicality. I hope that this helps to clear things up in some people's minds about this issue.

I just want to add something to the speakers:

If you hire a professional acoustic engineer you can get away with spending a fraction of a branded high-end speaker price and you'll have a sound perfection for a PARTICULAR listening room. Certainly whenever you change your place the speakers might not sound right but I've seen that work wehre an engineer used the simpliest and cheapo pierless drivers widely used for DJ purposes to design an entertainment room that is now completely full with great sound and will certainly sound better if you change the source or amplification rather than upgrading the speakers so go and figure...

Its a sliding scale, that's why you are seeing so many good and valid responses from different people. How can that be?

Well, at first, speakers are the most critical. When setting up a beginner system, start at the speakers. You get 'em a nice pair of speakers, a hybrid integrated and a good 'lil CD player with decent but not too expensive wire - so they'll get as much enjoyment as possible, least hassle and no recoil, as in , its great but it sure did cost alot.

Then, in a few months, they're getting the itch and they don't even know what it is yet, you give 'em a few NOS tubes that don't cost too much, a tweak for the same reason, so they can see what is posssible down the road, hear how everything is eventually important, all the while they save for...

Separate electronics. A tube pre - maybe a vintage VTL nice-and-simple, and maybe a tech friend you know does you a favor and swaps some parts to soup it up a bit. Then a SS amp so he/she doesn't get too peeved too fast if a tube output goes - maybe a Pass Aleph 3 at $900 from someone who just wants to sell it - about $1500 total... Yea, that's about right for the second purchase. They're starting to scour Stereophile now and telling you what so-and-so said, all as a pretext for wanting what that pretty picture (of words) says they have-to-have, even though its out of their range, so just hold 'em back abit.

Bring over a top flight PC or IC to hear the difference, see what's down the road, but steer them to the...

Source, upgrade the CD player. Not because its most important, but because they've been reading, scanning this site and see all you AA and Mephisto guys railing poetic and the addiction, becoming formed, says it wants in on the action. They think they know more than they do now, so you wonder whether you should let them make a mistake on what Sam Tellig says, but instead, you get them to upgrade the CD - they feel better - but, at the same time, get em' to throw a couple VD or CPCC PC's in the mix.

Then, amp -its big, muscular - guys like that - you know, everyone's gotta cool amp and the Aleph 3 is so, well, boring looking, and, the engines in cars are the most important, right? So....its a VTL to match the pre. Good resale, won't get hurt much and will learn about the relationship of liquidity and dynamics.

After that, if so inclined, a turntable, and this goes on and on IN SPIRALS OF DEVELOPMENT where the component is inserted to increase synergy towrds musicality as the listeners MIND - not ears - increases in receptivity to the meaning in music.

Towards the later part of the arc (you notice, I didn't say end...), the mind sits up and notices that the room is the "most" important, or the "pre" has become the fulcrum of the system and at that level the pre becomes critical in terms of system-wide synergy and must be the most "important", or that Jena Valkyrie IC is just kickin' that Valhalla in the most sublime way that you can't quite describe, or....

And you are still on the spiral, like a double-helix of progessive, musically exponential, ascendancy.

And at each of these places, because that is where you mind is looking when not listening, you think that your place is the most important, BECAUSE, from where you are at, IT IS.

At the top, the ride ends and you see that the mind that could, that would, go there was always the most important "source". Yet at the same time, each and every component that you've had has been the "most important" for where you were. None of it was "less" important than the last.

You look down, sit back, turn on the stereo and listen to the Music. The spiral ends and the "most importants" end only when you see your own spiral.

But if you are looking at your own spiral, then you are not that spiral, then who is looking?

The same mind that was listening all along.

Muralman, does that sound like alchemy?

TWL, what would have been really interesting about your little demonstration, is to have run the lp12 through the A40'S. I think that the listeners would still have preferred the A40 set-up. Your demonstration actually only proved that people preferred the speakers being played than the sources, since there is a bigger difference among speakers as there is among sources.

Your music collection is far more important than the equipment it's played upon. A great system won't make bad music sound good, but great music is still great music even on bad systems.