Giving up on Power Race, and going SET?

I read the above rather quickly so I apologize in advance if I missed something.

1) There are several basic papers on the topic one of which I know to be online which should be cited so folks can read the basic work for themselves and the LIMITED claims made. Eduardo de Lima Why Single Ended Tube Amplifiers?

2) Said above by Z "Simply the fact that apparently only the SET crowd feels the need to come up with something like this rhetoric points the finger of doubt, to me." This is rather cheap ain't it Z? Why a personal attack on the folk who bring it up. Attacking the person is always a cheap argument. Why not keep to the issues? Why not cite the article and give your technical point on the issue? What's the problem??? Can't do the math??? It's the easiest thing in the world to go in this direction and return itin your face .."oh yea, another SS guy who chooses to ignore the obvious because he has invested in SS."

What does that do except destroy the discussion altogether???? Which is about the way things go around here as a rule.

3) s above: "and more than a little ingenuous in its seemingly willful selectivity."

You do not have to agree with de Lima but his credentials are impressive, his work extensive, and he is extremely humble and good natured fellow. If he has made a mistake, so be it, cite to his work. But he is not going to ruin his professional reputation by the "willful" publishing of unsupported rationalizations. Again.... cheap.

"a fondness for playing devil's advocate" is a good thing, if you ask me, but not if it results in an intellectually lazy assault on someone's character.

4) The oddest thing is that compared to many of the completely unsupported technical arguments that are floated around this forum as gospel this one is rather mundane. The cancellation of distortion is common and well understood. (differential amps - P-P topology, balanced lines....)

Sorry, if I seem a bit touchy but I have pretty much stopped posting here except for an occasional joke because the arguments here are so often laced with this stuff in lieu of the issue.

Z...You are smart enough not to have to go there.

I remain,

Hi guys. Thanks for the responses. Yes, I do get quite carried away at certain times. However, my two or three posts are like a little wind in a hurricane of thoughts to the contrary. I don't expect to really get anywhere with this. The whole market is stacked the other way.

Brulee, I apologize of my last 4 sentences of my other post seemed offensive. I feel that sometimes a little "shock factor" can be useful to stir up people's thought processes.

Alex, regarding my attempt to quantify, while casting aspersions on quantification, that is a valid criticism, but it was an apparently meager attempt to communicate to the measurement people in words and concepts they might relate to. They want to hear hard reasons and even measurements if they can get them, so I gave a concept. I have no doubt that if this theory proves true, that there would be a runaway train of measurement people sacrificing the other needed qualities of the amp and speaker, to get this particular measurement. Sorry, but I do feel that they are hopeless.

I don't promote SETs/Single Drivers to everyone, because they are not for everyone. Some could not abide the certain problems associated with a system like I have. I am very aware of the shortcomings of them, because I live with a system like that every day. I would be the first to say they are not perfect, nor are they even close to perfect.

Regarding the single-driver distortion issue, they are in fact a very low distortion driver. This is due in part to very high magnet strength, extremely low moving mass, and short excursion. This makes the single-driver much more responsive than the typical cone driver, and have lower harmonic distortion than other cone drivers. As far as high frequency reproduction goes, my Lowthers are flat to above 20kHz, so I don't see a rolloff problem there. And they are clearer in the very high frequency than any dome tweeter that I've ever heard. In addition, the hysteresis is very low, due to the things I stated above, and the fact that no crossovers are present in the system. The supposed real weak points of single drivers(excluding deep bass response) is the potential for intermod and doppler distortions, and high frequency dispersion due to beaming. And these are real concerns. I would only say that these things turn out to be less problematic to my ears, than the problems associated with multi-driver systems, which number in the hundreds. For every "fix" you get from increasing the number of drivers, you get 10 more problems. When you try to "fix" those, you get 10 more. It never ends, and you move away from the music. The speaker design becomes a race to meet the expected technical aspects of frequency response, and dispersion, and loses focus of what it was supposed to be in the first place.

I may be highly opinionated and passionate, but I'm not decieved. If multi-drivers really did what they claim to do, then I wouldn't be saying jack-shit about this subject. The fact is that they sacrifice more than they gain. It's a loss-loaded movement. For every gain, there are multiple losses. And the losses are of the most harmful kind. And again it goes back to what they consider important in the design, which is paper specifications that sell speakers to the magazine reading consumer. I'd be willing to bet that very few people that even read this post have ever laid an ear on a good single driver speaker. Except for full range electrostats, and they are also a single driver speaker. People seem to think that they are fine. The only difference is the diaphram shape and size. They are low distortion, high magnetic strength, and very light moving mass, with very low excursion. And they generally have the same problems with very low bass, and wide dispersion, and even intermod.

Now if people are happy with their CD,SS, multi-driver systems, that's great. For them. In my case, I'm not happy with that. I've had that numerous times, and know just exactly what it is. I want a closer interaction with the music than is provided with that kind of system. I have found a way to do that. Would I like to get even better? Sure, and I look for ways that I can improve these things, and make mods, and even look at other roads to do it. I've picked my poison, and I know where the deadly parts are. I can live with these, at this time, until I can find a less deadly poison.

The whole impetus for this tirade I've gone on, is to confront the issue that is frequently being pushed to the fore, that somehow SET amps and single driver speakers are some kind of distortion machines, that "euphonic distortion" fetishists use, and that they just don't compare to the "big time" systems. That claim is wrong, and it is stated over and over on this forum, with nobody refuting it. That is over. I will continue to refute that issue. It is interesting that when SET/Single-driver systems are relegated to the distortion bin, which is fairly common on this board, nobody says anything about it, they just accept it as truth. But, when somebody says that CD systems with big SS amps and multi-driver systems don't cut it, watch out for the tomatoes. Then it is considered intolerant of others' systems. Snobbery. But, what is the implied statement, when the terms "euphonic distortion" and and the like, are used? It is that they somehow know that SET people don't know what "accurate" sound is, and that we are into certain kinds of "inaccuracy" that really isn't as good as their "low measurement" systems are. Is that not snobbery? Of course it is. But it is tolerated because it is the opinion of the masses. When I go the other way, it raises eyebrows. Double standard? You betcha. Then I am asked for "proof", not in terms of musical performance, but in measurement terms. Case closed. They are not interested in musical performance, they are interested in measurements that satisfy their reliance on numbers, and not their ears.

No system is a "one size fits all" system. There is room for many kinds of systems for different people. I only take exception when it is presumed that a good type of system is cast into a "lower" category because of the attitudes that are created by this numbers race. So I gave a little dose of the same medicine to everybody else, so they could experience what it feels like. And the responses were based upon my statements either appearing to be intolerant and snobbish, or not being borne out by measured data. Was this not a predictable set of responses? Of course. I went against the accepted grain of high end thinking. Thus, my premises are met with criticism and said to be unfounded in measurable scientific terms. Perfectly natural and predictable, given the mind-set that pervades high end audio today.

I am inherently a person who doesn't mind "rocking the boat" when I know I have a valid point. I am used to being met with resistance, and it's happened all my life. Some people may read this, and take a look at what I said, and seek out a system like this to listen to. If that happens, I have done my job. As far as the others go, I doubt I'll ever get through to them, and I'll always be considered to be a "fringe element" type to them. That's ok. I like being out on the edge. I've always been bored, when I'm in the middle of the "comfort zone".

Thanks, Craig! I appreciate your support and participation on this issue. I'm glad you decided to take a look at this thread, and contribute the article that I couldn't find, and your well-placed responses.

I don't think it has to be an all or nothing decision. Power is realitive to system, room, desired volume and of course subjective quality. While Twl probably has a lot more experience than I do, my conclusions are the opposite. Interestingly enough the equipment that I would most like to audition seems to be in the general direction, if not the exact path that he has chosen.

Unsound, you're right, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing decision. And I try not to say(although I am guilty of implying) that others should not go in different directions. Heck, if they really like something else, then they should have it. I mean, if I was a pipe organ junkie, and liked to hear it at live cathedral volume levels, I wouldn't have the system that I do. That would be trying to listen to music that struck right at the heart of the weaknesses in my current system.

I'll give you an example. Bishopwill and I used to have a running discussion about the need for deep bass. I stuck to my guns, and when he wanted a set of speakers for his bedroom system, he told me he would try a set of Lowthers because I was so high on them. Now this is a guy that actually gave what I am saying a shot, in his own home. This is the first guy I know about that actually listened instead of making a pre-judgment. I respect that greatly. And you know, he actually liked them alot. He didn't wind up getting them, because the cabinets were too big for the bedroom, but he became aware of what the single driver sound can be. And he liked it alot. And he is an organ music lover who really needs deep bass for the music he likes to listen to. No, the Lowthers didn't do that, but he really appreciated them for what they did do well.Now he knows first hand what this type of speaker can and cannot do. I don't fault him at all for not getting them. He had his reasons that were completely valid.

I'm very glad that you are interested in auditioning a system of this type. It may or may not be for you. But at least you will know what these systems can do. I strongly recommend using a vinyl source for the audition, because these systems can be very revealing, and may pass a little too much of the digital nasties to be palatable. At least that is my opinion.

I know sometimes I come on very strong about certain issues, but I'm not trying to be an S.O.B.

Sometimes it just takes a little extra zest to get people to try something different.

I just felt that I needed to get some of this stuff off my chest, because it was getting to me that people actually think I am listening to a distorted system. Jeez! I don't like distortion any more than the next guy. Euphonic or otherwise. I like it clean, and that's why I felt so compelled to say something about it. My system is clean, man. It is not full of any kind of distortion. It's just as clean as anything out there, and maybe cleaner. I want people to know that they are not moving to a distorted system, just because they select a SET amp or a single driver speaker. I wouldn't have to have said any of this if there hadn't been this movement to "tag" the SET amps with the distortion label. Sorry if I over did it.