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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
ricevs
1,543 posts
 
I don't use any electrolytic caps in my xover (there are no coupling caps except for the filter caps)....only tiny polyprops. As far as resistors....you can easily to a straight wire bypass on a one ohm resistor.....just add it to the output of a low impedance line source...like your preamp. You can get a one ohm Pathaudio or Mills resistor and a .1% Susuma surface mount resistor (10 cents each) and listen....I know what you will hear. It won't be in favor of the giant thang (otherwise we would all be using giant resistors in our gear). The reason for giant resistors is that they need to be large to handle the current and wattage at speaker level or the voltage/wattage when using in high voltage tube electronics.

If you have 6db per octave x-over then you really don't need an active x-over.....at least on the top end. Coils really muck up the sound on a two way. Yes, bi-amping or tri-amping is not simple.....but with the right equipment and drivers can be incredible. The dynamics from a midrange and woofs without the coils is spectacular. What is for certain....is that there has never been a great line level x-over before. So, anyone who has tried this with what is currently available has no idea how good it can be. Even the one that Rockport sells with their $200,000 speaker is full of opamps!!! yikes! op amps are fine for the bass...but above that....not!!!
vn101606
73 posts
 
Regarding active bi-amping, I tried for several months, with a Pass XVR-1 (upgraded pot to Dact), and two pairs of Kell fpb 750mcx. Tried many alternative settings, with one pair driving directly the two 15" woofers of each speaker, and the other driving the remaining 3-way passive crossover. Measured, listened, changed, measured, listened, changed, many times.

The sound with just the passive external crossover, with the Duelund (caps/inductors) and Path Audio resistors is so much more open and fleshed out than biamping that I finally gave up and I am selling the crossover and second pair of monos.

I considered trying the new active crossover designed by Nelson Pass, the First Watt B4, that now uses top components such as discrete Vishay resistors and Toshiba JFET transistors (US$1500), but I decided I am done with biamping.

Quite happy about the sound of my system with my new external passive crossovers.
ricevs
1,543 posts
 
Yes, your crossover is simple so an active xover would have to be seriously transparent for it to make any difference. The First Watt B4 is similar to the one I am designing....except mine is super way more tweak and pure. No switches, no pots, better power supply, modded Wima caps in power supply, better wire, jacks, resistors, etc.

Yesterday talked to my friend who owns the Hawthorne Audio 700 hz AMTs. He put it in place of his Scanspeak beryllium tweet in his active three way (highly modded Behringer x-over). He was crossing the tweet in at 3K but now can cross the AMT in at 700hz....he says it is way better....his midrange is an Audio Tech driver in a carbon fiber ball. He is using just 12 db per octave. He says the very top of the beryllium is slightly more open but the AMT is changing each hour as he burns it in....so it might even equal the beryllium in the very top once broken in......but having a super fast AMT go all the way down to 700hz is killer....he says its "electrostatic like". So, even a simple 12 db per octave passive xover could be used in a killer two way. A couple of fast high efficient 10s that would match the 97db sensitivity of the AMT and you have one seriously dynamic and transparent speaker. Me want! He is going to lend me the AMTs after I get my xover done and I will try running two B&G Neo 10s from 250 to 700.....along with my servo woofs underneath. Class A amps on both the Neo 10s and the AMT. I am drooling!
vn101606
73 posts
 
Ricevs,

Ricevs,

I liked the First Watt B4 concept of having an attenuator select so either the low pass or the high pass, only one, uses an attenuator. The other one does not have an attenuator in the signal path. Makes sense. I, for example you use the attenuator only in the Low Pass.

The parts in the W4 are very high quality, Vishay 1% metal film resistors, Wima caps, Toshiba jfets, so I am curious to know more about your new XO. When will it be ready? Will it have balanced inputs and outputs?

VPN
ricevs
1,543 posts
 
In my x-over you will also get to choose which amp to attenuate....However, you will be using fixed resistors (way better than any pot) to do the padding. Also there will not be switches in the path to choose which amp gets padded. Everything will be done with push connectors that you can press wire or resistors in. This includes all the filter resistors. The B4 uses switches to change all the frequencies....these are in the signal path. There will also be on the board holes to solder world class resistors in instead of using the push connectors and also pads for world class surface mount resistors. My buffers are also Toshiba but I am using them single ended which will eliminate the resistors and pots that the B4 has on the output of his buffers.

The term "Vishay resistors" no longer means much. Years ago, before Vishay bought a bunch of companies....Vishay meant the bulk foil super expensive resistors....now, Vishay means almost anything. The "Vishay" resistors that are used in the B4 are generic and I am pretty sure not picked for sound. The Wima caps are great and I will be using those too but I will mark every cap for outside foil and orient them in the sonically best direction (to ground or output). The basic resistors I use will be better than generic Vishay and you can then substitute the worlds best resistors and either press them in to the connectors or solder them in (most tweak of all).

In order to have balanced you will have to buy two and use each one as a mono balanced x-over.

You really don't need an active xover with your speakers.....you need better speakers.....oh, oh I done did it...he he...The concept that Dunlavy used was great (six db per octave, time aligned, D-appolito, felting) but his drivers were just ordinary (also his cabinet construction). Today, the level of drivers in the mids and highs is way beyond those drivers (I played with them many years ago and even then they were not that great). I am glad you have at least upgraded the tweeter. If you used the Hawthorne AMTs with a couple of super efficient 10s and bi-amped them with my xover and then used your giant thangs as subs.....you would be in heaven. The Hawthorne AMT goes to 700hz is 97 db efficient and is dipole....just sit it on top of the cabinet and time align (and isolate). I am sure your super modded speakers are fantastic (not to mention, you spent a lot of money on x-over parts). So, new speakers are probably not on your table....just sayin'... I guess I am just excited about what bi-amping using my new Class A amps and these AMTs can do....I cannot wait!
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